[nagdu] Dog Choosing (was) Re: PBS program link

[Dan Sweeney]

I certainly wish I would have had the opportunity to try at least a couple ,
if not three, dogs, when I attended my school in 2008. I was certainly
mis-matched, even the trainer that came on a house visit after the fact
agreed with this. 
I know it was my responsibility to speak up if I was not ready, if I was not
comfortable with the dog, or if I was having problems of any kind. The
problem was, being a first time user, I was not sure what was going to work
itself out and what would not.
I informed the school of certain health conditions I had, but they were
apparently ignored by them, or were not brought by me as a concern by me,
again, for the same reasons - what would calm down quickly and what would
not.
It has taken almost 2 years to get my boy into the shape I need him to be
in, and we are finally working out fairly well, with a few problems here and
there, that I believe should not be there, but after 2 years, I would not
stop working with him now.
I only wish I could have " practiced " with a couple of dogs before the
final choice was made.
Daniel and Scout.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Nicole B. Torcolini
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:24 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Dog Choosing (was) Re: PBS program link

In order for a person to really choose the right dog out a few dogs, how 
long do you think that the person would spend with the dog and what would 
the person do?  Also, do you think that that could make things more 
confusing for the dog when it did finally get with a person?  Just a little 
info: If GDB is really concerned about a person needing a particular type of

dog, they will have them do an extended evaluation by coming to the 
California campus for three days.  The person works with different dogs, but

does not receive any of those dogs.  However, they do gett to say which 
dog/personality/walking pace they liked better, and it gives the trainers a 
chance to see the person actually work with a dog.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] PBS program link


> Anne,
>
> I agree with many of your points.  It was very good to see the issue of 
> matches that just don't work out as a normal part of the process.  I loved

> that they were using positive training methods.  I also do very much like 
> the idea of the human partner being actively involved in the matching 
> process.  Although my ideal would be for 2 to 4 dogs to be offered and 
> picking between them.  I firmly believe that there is no absolutely 
> perfect dog, just like there are no perfect people.  It is a relationship 
> which involves give and take.  If I had a few dogs to choose from and 
> information about each to make a decision I would be a very happy camper!
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] PBS program link
>
>
>> Hi, All,
>>
>> I thought the "Through a Dog's Eyes" program was very well done, and not 
>> too bad in the pity department.  Yes, they did emphasize the bond between

>> the people and the dogs, perhaps over the actual physical help the dog 
>> can be by performing tasks.  But I think they were correct that the task 
>> training does no good in the long run if the bond and relationship aren't

>> there.
>>
>> I also think they did a very good job of showing all the hard work that 
>> goes into building a working team after the new partners go home from the

>> training program.  I thought the program showed very realistically how 
>> careful a family has to be to foster and nurture the relationship between

>> the intended handler and the new dog in order to make the team a success,

>> especially when the intended handler is a child.  As they showed, dogs 
>> will naturally gravitate to the most nurturing person in the family, 
>> especially if the dog is less confident itself, and in most cases, it 
>> takes a lot of work to teach a child to be the nurturer of the dog, 
>> especially if an adult is doing a lot of the routine care of the dog 
>> because the child cannot physically do it, and even more so if the dog is

>> not going to school with the child but is staying at home all day with 
>> the parent.  The fact that left to their own devices, many of the dogs do

>> choose a child with special needs to be their person and to mutually 
>> nurture and support is truly amazing and wonderful.
>>
>> And I think they did a great job of showing that things don't always work

>> out, and that it is not the fault of the new handler, or the dog, or 
>> anyone, it just happens, and no one is necessarily to blame.  I think 
>> perhaps the guide dog training schools might take a leaf from this 
>> program's book and openly admit the percentages of graduate teams that 
>> end in the first few months or years.  When was the last time you saw in 
>> a video from a guide dog program several cases of guide relations that 
>> didn't work out?--and presented as just a normal part of the process!
>>
>> I do think it is a great idea to let the intended handlers and the dogs 
>> find and choose each other.  I think the success rate, even in the case 
>> of long-established guide dog programs, would be at least as high using 
>> this method as it is using instructor-matching .  When I went to TSE for 
>> the first time, the instructors had a dog in the "house" which was there 
>> because his person was incapacitated for a while.  I volunteered to groom

>> and keep that dog company before we got matched, and, given the choice, I

>> would have taken that dog home.  He was a GSD, just the breed I wanted, 
>> and had the characteristics I wanted temperamentally and behaviorally. 
>> And we just felt comfortable together from the first moment.  Of course, 
>> that dog wasn't available, and the dog I went home with worked out just 
>> fine, although we did not have that instant bond.
>>
>> But I do think the dogs should have a chance to choose their people, more

>> than that the people should have a chance to choose the dogs.  I think 
>> people have preconceived notions of what kind of dog they want.  But the 
>> dogs go much more on "feel" and "energy."  People can be so influenced by

>> what is fashionable, or by what status they think a particular size, or 
>> color, or breed of dog will confer on them, or by how the particular dog 
>> will affect their image.  But dogs choose their people on how comfortable

>> they feel with that person, by how their energies match, and by how they 
>> complement each other's strengths and needs.
>>
>> And I didn't get the impression that it was a complete free-for-all in 
>> the matching process.  I got the impression that the dogs are introduced 
>> to the people in a somewhat structured and controlled way, with trainers 
>> observing and noting the dogs' and the people's responses to each other, 
>> and that after seeing how all the dogs and people respond to each other, 
>> that it gradually becomes apparent where most of the matches lie.  Then, 
>> as described in the program, there may be a couple of more tricky matches

>> that the trainers need to be creatively involved in facilitating.
>>
>> I think the guide dog training programs might consider adopting something

>> like this system by letting prospective handlers interact with several 
>> dogs over those first couple of days at the school, perhaps let them 
>> groom, play with, or take the dogs for a leisure walk or take them to 
>> meals with them. I think it would soon become apparent which people were 
>> beaming and which dogs had eyes for only that one person.
>>
>> Another thing I really liked about this program was the description of 
>> their training and handling philosophy.  They realized that the old 
>> dominance theory of dog training was not going to work for their 
>> handlers, and they have adopted a positive reinforcement based training 
>> method that doesn't rely on force, and which takes advantage of a dog's 
>> willingness to please and to work happily for rewards that are meaningful

>> to the dog.
>>
>> I do disagree with one point in this program, and that is that dogs are 
>> the only species that can have this special bond with people.  I know 
>> from experience that the same kind of bond can grow between a person and 
>> a horse, and I suspect that the same goes for other species which have 
>> been in millennia long close relationships with human beings.  Horses, 
>> too, seem to be able to read our thoughts.  They do seem to understand 
>> that it is their job to keep us from harm in certain ways.  And they seem

>> to accept us as their "family" and to adopt roles that they might fill in

>> their packs or "bands" in the case of horses.
>>
>> I don't blame the makers of the TV program or the people from the 
>> assistance dog program for having this canine-centric point of view. 
>> After all, how many people in this day and age have had the opportunity 
>> to develop a close relationship with a horse, or a camel, or a llama, or 
>> an elephant, for that matter?  Yet I believe that if we accept the animal

>> for what it is and we respect the animal and its "culture" and how it 
>> sees the world, we will find that we can have deep and caring 
>> relationships with individuals of a number of species and that these 
>> animals show amazing responsiveness and awareness of us and our needs.
>>
>> Anyway, it seemed to me that this service dog training program was 
>> applying refreshingly creative thinking to the challenges of pairing 
>> people with disabilities with dogs and fostering good working and 
>> companion relationships between them.  They obviously didn't just go and 
>> observe some guide dog training programs and model their program on what 
>> was decided in the 1930's and 1940's.  So I give both the Canine 
>> Assistants program and the PBS producers high marks for producing a very 
>> interesting and thought-provoking piece.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:53 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] PBS program link
>>
>>
>>> Here's the link to the PBS program
>>>
>>> http://video.pbs.org/video/1475527358
>>>
>>> When I went to that link the video started playing automatically.   No 
>>> clue if that's just my settings or if it will do that for everyone.
>>>
>>> My thoughts on the program...
>>> I'm with Tracy, that bit at the beginning about how the dogs give the 
>>> person their life and happiness was disturbing.  I also noticed that 
>>> they used, "confined to a wheelchair" which is generally not accepted 
>>> among disability groups.  I was also very, very not impressed by a 
>>> statement toward the end of the program about the people not being 
>>> normal, then they get the dogs and can have a life and a job.
>>>
>>> this particular service dog program seems to place a lot of dogs with 
>>> young children.  The video mentions 5 kids and only one adult.  It was 
>>> interesting to see how much the parents and other family members were 
>>> involved in the process.
>>>
>>> I liked the trainer, Chris.  He uses positive training methods, mainly 
>>> luring.  It was really cool to see how he could use eye movement to cue 
>>> the dog, very useful for nonverbal people.
>>>
>>> The program focuses a lot on the emotional aspects of service dogs. 
>>> Probably 95% of what they talked about were bonding and partnership 
>>> aspects and very little in actual tasks.
>>>
>>> The matching process was very, very different from what is typical in 
>>> guide dog programs.  It seemed to me that they let all the dogs and 
>>> people mingle in one big room.  The dogs and people picked each other. 
>>> I'm not sure how big the class was, but there were two dog switches, one

>>> during class and another a few weeks after returning home.  I like the 
>>> concept of choosing your own dog, to a point. I don't know that a free 
>>> for all matching process is the best way to go though.
>>>
>>> JMO
>>> Julie
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>>
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