[nagdu] was Matching, now Owner Training

Wed Apr 28 23:37:58 UTC 2010

Katrin,

The approach you describe sounds very much like my own decision-making
process with Mitzi.  She was my first guide dog as well as my first trainee,
so dealing with those behaviors here and there that may or may not have been
deal breaker issues was more difficult and fraught than it would have been
had I had some "real" experience under my belt.

However, I did do a lot of pulling odds and ends out of my bag of tricks --
and running to others with more experience to see if they had some new
tricks for me.  /smile/

How I started viewing the issue for my own reference was by asking the
question:  Do I believe there is a training solution for this problem?  Or
is the behavior a symptom of a temperament issue that cannot be overcome by
training?

Answering those two questions took a whole lot of thinking and planning and
weighing in a couple of areas; however, the possible temperament issues
behind the behavior were usually ruled out by my observations of Mitzi's
behavior in other areas.  So that told me I needed to refine my training
solution or find a new one.  Or retire the dog because I couldn't figure it
out.  /smile/  I always considered this option in that sort of phrasing as
motivation when the going got tough.  When we started, I gave *her*
permission to fail and to let me know when it was time to call it quits.  I
did not give myself that same permission! /grin/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Katrin Andberg
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:18 AM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] was Matching, now Owner Training

I currently have my 8 year old owner trained dog, and 2 years ago began
training a new puppy who after about 12 months I realized this just wasn't
going to work for him or me and I chose to find him a new more appropriate
home.  I have also helped a number of other people train their guide and/or
service dogs, many of which worked out and are doing an excellent job, some
of which for various reasons did not work out and were either kept by their
owners or rehomed.  I am currently on the wait list for a program dog but
also considering owner training again if the right dog shows up in my life
and will then just forgo a program dog.  

For the question of "How do you know when it is time to give up or keep
going?" from my personal experience it's a multifaceted answer.  

One part I take into consideration is- how many ways have I come at this
problem?  How many windows have I tried to look for to give the dog an
opportunity to show me that yes he can do this task at hand?  If I find
myself going at a problem the same way and getting no positive result, then
it's time to try a new way.  I go into my extensive bag of tricks that I've
developed or learned over the past decade plus in dog training.  Generally I
will try at least 3 possibly 4 or maybe 5 different ways and if the dog
still isn't showing me that he is willing to do this, then I will say "OK
time to reevaluate this picture." And possibly make the decision that this
job isn't right for this dog.

I will also take into consideration what the dog is telling me he wants.  If
the dog learns everything but just doesn't seem happy and enthusiastic when
the harness or vest gets picked up or you ask him if he wants to go to work
and he lays there on the floor looking at you absolutely saying, "No
thanks!" then you have to respect that!  Maybe this dog is not cut out for
such a high stress job as being a service or guide dog.  And that's ok!  The
dog needs to want to work for this to work out long term.

I also of course take vet's opinion and health testing results into
consideration.  If the x-rays say the dog has hip or elbow dysplasia or
arthritis or another joint problem, then sorry no matter how temperamentally
this dog may work out, is body won't hold up to the job and so I'm not going
to ask him to do that to himself.  Same thing goes for the eye exam.  Or
certain other health testing for certain breeds.  My puppy that I had to
rehome ended up with idiopathic epilepsy.  That disease totally came out of
left field for me and his breeder, neither of us ever in a million years
expected that to happen, but turns out 2 other litter mates ended up with it
too.  The breeder spayed/neutered the parents and spayed/neutered all
littermates, even though conformationally a number were drop dead gorgeous,
same as the parents, and would have done very well in the show ring.  Stuff
like that happens, thems the breaks.

In addition I look at how well the dog and I are matched and getting along.
Even had my puppy not ended up with epilepsy, I doubt that he ever would
have worked out as my next working dog, we just were not a good match.  By
the time he was a year old he was driving me up a wall.  He was so over
friendly and exuberant and so dog focused and people friendly and constantly
wanted attention and was very much an "in your face" dog that it drove me
batty.  I don't like dogs or people constantly invading my personal space
bubble.  He did that All The Time and he got a huge kick out of the fact
that it annoyed me to no end.  His new owner, she loves this about it.  Me,
I couldn't stand it.  He was incredibly intelligent and could have learned
every new skill I ever would have needed, but personality wise we would have
driven each other insane.  So for me at least, one thing that absolutely has
to happen is I have to be able to stand living with the dog.  I would think
that most people are very much the same LOL

Those are some of the things I look at when training and working with a dog
for determining when it's time to throw in the towel or to try some more and
see what happens.  

Katrin Andberg & "James"
katrin at maplewooddog.com

-----Original Message-----

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 8:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] was Matching, now Owner Training

Tami and other owner-trainers, 
How do you know when it is time to give up or keep going? I've always
wondered about that. 
As for the experts knowing all there is to know about the dogs, I'm not
sure how true that is. When I got my dogs, I do remember asking
questions about house manners and guiding situations and was honestly
told "I've never seen her in that situation, I don't know". 
I appreciated and still appreciate the honesty. Still, it is hard to not
know. Also, people assume that the dog "is fully trained" meaning that
the dog will never do "anything wrong" which is also hard to deal with. 

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