[nagdu] Critical blind people

Sun Aug 1 02:38:41 UTC 2010

Jennine, thanks for writing all this out. This has pretty much bee my
experience but I couldn't have said it near as well. Find is really very
helpful but it has it's conditions to be aware of which you explained very
well.

Charlene 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 2:18 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you have encountered the sentiment that
having your dog find common things, like entrances, elevators, etc., is too
hard. 

This is not a GDf brag by any means but this concept of using the dog's
vision and training to help you find things being too much is so foreign to
how I have been taught for the past 20 years that it boggles my mind. 

My first group of instructors at GDf told us that we could teach our dogs to
find just about anything if we used the method we were taught and started
slowly. We were encouraged throughout class to have the dog find things and
finding entrances and exits was part of every day work. Finding stairs,
elevators, escalators, etc., was as well. During class we have the dogs find
our rooms, not because GDF thinks we can't  but because it does help to
instill that find command. I use this constantly in hotels where I want the
dog to return to my room. 

We, and when I say we, I mean students, teach the dogs to find "my seat"
which is either an assigned seat in the dining room during class, or any
seat I might vacate and leave things at, such as in a meeting. I don't even
have to leave my things there necessarily. 

The hard part about this type of work is allowing the dog to do it, make
mistakes and get it right. You do have to offer the dog a little support at
times and not over correct if he or she gets it wrong, but wow, it's a way
of working with a dog that maximizes both of your abilities and if you have
the least problem with hearing or orientation, this skill can be invaluable.

I've heard one instructor say that the find command doesn't work because
people too often misuse it, asking their dogs to find things that aren't
there or facing one direction and asking the dog to find the door out of a
room without knowing where it is. 

My answer to this is that either the people he has seen don't understand how
the command works or aren't reading their dogs well, or the dogs have never
been taught the command and what is expected of them. Dogs and people who
have been taught the find command and know how to teach it in a variety of
settings, usually get it. I can be facing the back wall of a room and ask my
dog to "find outside." He may turn a couple times or do a circuit of the
room until he recognizes the door out but he will find it. This is
especially helpful in large open spaces like exhibit halls. 

Now, this year in Dallas, Swap found getting out of the exhibit hall very
challenging some days. So did my wallet but that's another story. <grin>
There were often crowds, but not necessarily huge crowds, around the
entrance so when I asked him to find outside, meaning the way out, he would
do a circuit of the room and end up at a booth we liked, always a different
one, but usually not necessarily close to the exit. 

Well, DUH, Jenine, why not try some positive reinforcement when he does get
it? A little food reward paired with the GDF praise "Good outside!" worked
wonders. E

I can't even imagine why other blind people or other handlers would
criticize using these commands, unless it's for the reasons espoused by the
instructor. If my dog just isn't finding something, chances are it really
isn't there or he's confused somehow. That's when I can step in and ask
others for help, just pointing me in the right direction usually works but
sometimes the dog figures out that the human knows best and will default to
that. 

The key to really getting the most out of the find command though once it's
been cemented, is to use it. Expect the dog to find things and reward
appropriately. You also need at times to use other humans to help when
learning new things to find, like doors, elevators and such in new places.
No big deal though. Some dogs are better at words and finding things than
others too. I've had the spectrum and even the ones who weren't truly word
oriented were concept and context oriented and caught on quickly. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cathryn Bonnette
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:52 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

Hi Rox,

As soon as I brought Abby home from SE, I started teaching her the "find"
command. I was also told it was unreasonable to expect her to find things
like elevators and exits for me. Well, I don't have a hearing problem, but I
had problems with special orientation and getting lost easily even when I
could see. When I lost my sight a few years ago, my ability to get lost
improved dramatically! /smile/ If my guide dog can't find the escalator, or
elevator, or office door etc., we might never find it, but she actually
learned the new command and now does exactly what I need.  I struggle to
comprehend why the rudeness you experienced is so common among blind people.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing at least some of
the same things that you are to get oriented, and I wish you hadn't had
those experiences. As for a long term answer- I'm still working it out. It
seems that if I hang around with other blind folks, I am very likely to be
criticized fairly frequently just for living! On the other hand, as I
experience increasing distance from other social groups I don't much care
for the Hermit lifestyle either. Ah so. Maybe I'll figure that out
tomorrow-/smile/ Your thoughts?

Be well-

Cathryn (& Abby)     

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of The Pawpower Pack
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:14 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

Hi Dan,
Oh yes, I get judged quite a bit because I can't use my ears to orient to my
environment.  I went to an NFB convention in 2006 which was held at the
hotel in Dallas.  I got lost quite a bit and every time I'd ask someone for
assistance, they'd invariably say, "Listen to the fountain, where you want
to go, that's left of the fountain."
I couldn't hear the fountain at all and when I said that I was deaf, I got
quite a few nasty comments, the most polite of which was, "well I can't help
you, then."
Also when I ask a person for directions, and they snap their fingers or tap
on a chair/table and say "Over here!" and then they get frustrated because I
can't figure out where over here is, exactly.  I can hear people speaking if
we're in a quiet place, but I can't tell where the person is because like
you, I can't localize sound.
I've also been chastised by other blind people and guide dog program
employees for expecting my dog to help me in convention settings by finding
things such as the elevator, or the door outside.  I spend a great deal of
time training this skill and I would say that my dogs are far more fluent in
the "find" cue than most guide dogs because it's a necessity for them to be.
For many blind people, the find cue is just an added bonus.  I've been told
that it is too much to expect my dog to find elevators or whatever and that
I am going to stress my dog out, that I'm not taking responsibility for my
part in the team and that my dog can't be expected to just take me where I
want to go.
I do have very good O&M skills, but I'm also deaf so my needs are different
than for most guide dog handlers who are blind only.
I get frustrated sometimes because I don't know why we can't just appreciate
the one another's differences instead of getting upset when someone can't or
chooses not to, do things like the majority.

Rox and the Herbal HenchHounds
Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out
that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half- wit, and
the emperor remains an emperor."-- Neil Gaiman
http://www.pawpowercreations.com/retreat.html
pawpower4me at gmail.com
AIM: Brissysgirl

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