[nagdu] schools and abuse

[Julie J]

Jodie,

How does skype work?

I think I was thinking of a phone line so that it would be available to more 
people.  Not everyone has a computer or is comfortable with it, but I think 
a social networking site would be an excellent secondary option.  Also I 
think it is important to guarantee anonymity.  If the person is really 
struggling and isn't comfortable with going to the program for help, they 
aren't likely to really open up and talk about their issues if there is a 
fear of being reported.  Not sure how to achieve anonymity with any of the 
contact methods we've mentioned though.  But then again, I'm not the most 
technically savvy person either. *smile*

And then there is the issue of financing this venture and finding people to 
respond to inquiries...Hmmmm

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jodie and Xandir" <pisces at asmodean.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and abuse


> Maybe instead of a phone line we can use skype, or email, or twitter, or
> some other form of social networking that is free. That way people can 
> have
> several ways to contact people who can help them. I personally would be
> happy to volunteer to help with something like this.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 1:06 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and abuse
>
> Julie,
>
> I like the hotline idea. A lot.  It might also do for people who want to
> "report" guide dog users to someone, where they can also be educated about
> guide dogs?  Having that resource available for guide dog users who may be
> working through an issue but who don't want to call the school (which I 
> can
> certainly see!) would probably prove very valuable.
>
> It's a new idea to me, too.  I am currently having no useful thoughts 
> about
> funding and logistics.  /smile/  But we are getting some education about
> that through the NAGDU hotline...
>
> Worth thinking about.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:53 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] schools and abuse
>
> Jenine,
>
> You bring up some very good points.  Sorry I don't think I have answers.
> I'll still ramble on and on with my thoughts though. *smile*
>
> I do think it's like any other type of abuse.  How do we stop child abuse,
> spousal abuse, drug abuse or anything else?  -- You do the best you can 
> and
> deal with the pretty rare abuse situations the best you can.  Certainly 
> laws
>
> help to give police the authority to do something about it.  We all know 
> the
>
> history of women and African American abuse in this country.  Laws helped 
> to
>
> change that as did a shift of social consciousness.  Also all sorts of
> agencies were developed to assist both abusers and the abused to make
> positive changes, including everything from large organizations like the
> NAACP to small local support groups.
>
> I think a large shift in societies outlook on blind people, guide dogs and
> dogs in general needs to take place before anything substantial can be 
> done
> to reduce the sort of abuse we are talking about here.  As long as people
> are unwilling to talk to a blind person directly about perceived  violence
> or mishandling, then that person will walk away with the same
> misinformation, which they will most likely pass on to their friends and
> family.  I cannot count the number of times that someone asks me something
> totally off the wall about guide dogs.  Many, maybe most, of these people
> have needed weeks or months of seeing me and talking with me about other
> topics before they get up the courage to ask.  I'm not incredibly bubbly 
> and
>
> outgoing, but I don't bite either.  why does it take people so long to 
> work
> up to asking me their questions?
>
> Unfortunately dogs are viewed as property and too often not even as valued
> property.  What I would count as abuse is another person's daily routine. 
> I
>
> think Old Roy dog food should be banned and considered abuse. *smile*  but 
> I
>
> think I'm in the minority on that one.  Add in the mix the guide dog 
> mystic
> and I can understand why law enforcement might be reluctant.  I think the
> ADA and other laws have done a great deal in achieving equality for 
> disabled
>
> people, but at the same time I think they have also made people afraid of
> asking too many questions or interfering.  I think there is a fear of 
> being
> labeled as discriminating or being sued.  I have absolutely no idea how to
> change this.
>
> I work in the criminal justice system.  Before my current job I had this
> idea that "criminals" were some sort of different sort of people.  They 
> were
>
> not like me.  I would never, never stoop to that level.  I am different 
> and
> above that sort of behavior.  What I have learned in the past year and a
> half is that we are all the same.  I can no longer say that I'd never 
> steal,
>
> lie or even do violence to another person.  There are so many factors that
> mix together to affect what a person does in a particular situation on a
> particular day with particular people.  I don't know if it's possible to 
> say
>
> with 100% accuracy, "this person is okay and that one is not".  You just
> never know.
>
> An idea did just pop into my head as I was proofreading the above.  What 
> do
> you guys think of an anonymous hotline for guide dog handlers and maybe 
> even
>
> the public?  I mean someplace where a guide dog handler could call and 
> talk
> to a compassionate person who understands guide dogs to get some support?
> I'm thinking of something in the manner of the hotlines for suicide or 
> child
>
> abuse or spouse abuse?
>
> Thoughts?
> Julie
>
> --- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:56 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] schools and abuse
>
>
>> OK, couldn't resist chiming in on this discussion.
>>
>> At GDF we let people know that we do not take anonymous reports and will,
>> in
>> most cases, tell the person in question the name of the one doing the
>> reporting. The only times we might not do this would involve violence, 
>> the
>> one being reported possibly threatening the reporter. This is extremely
>> rare
>> though and I can't think of any circumstance when we've used it as a
>> defense
>> against telling the name of the person calling in an abuse report.
>>
>> That said, as others have noted here, most of the reports we receive are
>> from people, blind and sighted, who either do not understand guide work 
>> or
>> correction, or who have some axe to grind with the handler. We gently but
>> firmly explain to these people about how guide dogs are trained, etc. we
>> assure them that we understand their concern but that we also know, in
>> most
>> cases, that this graduate is capable. As a matter of record, we will call
>> the handler to let him/her know about the complaint. If it's something
>> totally spurious we won't waste our collective time, but if it's someone,
>> say, who works with or claims to have close contact with the handler, we
>> will often call to let him/her know. We also ask whether the complainant
>> has
>> spoken with the handler at all about the issue. As you can imagine, most
>> people have not, are reluctant to do so, etc.
>>
>> We also do not take formal reports from people who have not directly
>> witnessed whatever it is they are complaining about. Second and third 
>> hand
>> accounts don't cut it.
>>
>> I always tell those making complaints to imagine themselves in the shoes
>> of
>> the handler. What would they want to happen? If it was someone 
>> complaining
>> about their children, housekeeping, lawn or whatever thing I think, based
>> on
>> the conversation with that person I've been having, is valuable to
>> him/her,
>> how would he/she want someone else to handle it?
>>
>> Talking to someone who is doing something you don't agree with isn't easy
>> but if you feel that strongly, it's a must.
>>
>> Before I was affiliated at all with any guide dog school I did report
>> someone without talking to her. The school handled it just as I do now,
>> taking all the particulars and noting that I was not a first-hand 
>> observer
>> of any of the things I'd called about. I was calling because first-hand
>> observers had called the agency I worked for about this person. The 
>> school
>> said to have them call directly if it was such an issue.
>>
>> I then took their advice an called the woman to let her know that her
>> coworkers were reporting her and what I'd done as a result of my
>> supervisor
>> telling me to "fix this."
>>
>> It turned out that the  woman was having a lot of trouble accepting her
>> new
>> dog. She'd had that perfect first dog and the new one was, well, not
>> perfect. I felt like a jerk for reporting her. I called the school back
>> and
>> told them about our talk. They subsequently gave her some ways to handle
>> things in her yearly visit. I don't know if it got better or not but the
>> next time her coworkers called us, I sent them directly to the school,
>> after
>> giving a speech about how they should really talk to her first.
>>
>> I do have a question though for everyone here. I think it's very fair to
>> note that the schools should screen applicants closely to avoid those who
>> might become abusers. What tools might we use to do such screening?
>>
>> What if someone refuses to disclose that he or she has been to several
>> schools and has not received a dog due to being asked to leave their
>> programs?
>>
>> Conversely, how do we handle people who have had a run of dogs, more than
>> 3
>> in, say, a five year period, or a number of very short-term matches, 2
>> years
>> or less, due to health or behavioral issues in the dogs? Sometimes these
>> are
>> legitimate issues and have absolutely nothing to do with the person's
>> abilities. Sometimes though there are other factors involved.
>>
>> How would you feel about schools contacting each other about applicants?
>>
>> Right now due to HIPPA and other privacy laws we cannot really do so, at
>> least we at GDF choose not to do so. This puts us in a bind at times with
>> applicants who are less than truthful with us.
>>
>> If there's anything I can beg of you all, it's to please tell us the
>> absolute truth on an application. If you've had 6 dogs in 6 years from a
>> school, tell us and if we ask, explain why. That's better than us finding
>> out at some point along the way. Trust me, people tell us about 
>> applicants
>> all the time. We also read a number of handler email lists, because we
>> just
>> like to do so and interact with everyone.
>>
>> "Don't ever let Mr. X have a dog. I read on email that he did Y with his
>> last dog."
>>
>> If I had a dime for every time our office got an email or phone call like
>> this, I could retire from GDF easily.
>>
>> We here on this list are, I'm assuming, responsible handlers and honest
>> people. That's not the case though, as we all know, of everyone out 
>> there.
>> There have been some stellar cases of fraud, the man who wasn't even 
>> blind
>> who got a dog from a school then used it and his supposed blindness to
>> scam
>> several women out of their life savings. This man faked doctor's reports
>> and
>> everything, including fooling a very knowledgeable and capable guide dog
>> school staff.
>>
>> The man who killed his guide dog had gone through training without a 
>> hitch
>> and even managed to look good on an after-care visit shortly before the
>> incident. Later we all learned of his domestic abuse of his family along
>> with his dog.
>>
>> Then there was the woman whose dog was removed and was denied future
>> training because of mental health reports about her young adopted 
>> daughter
>> and animal abuse. The school in question demanded reports from all manner
>> of
>> mental health professional. She went on to train and work successfully
>> with
>> a dog from another school.
>>
>> How can we as schools screen people without making everyone suspect or
>> completely invading everyone's privacy?
>>
>> What should we do if we do receive a complaint of true abuse, neglect or
>> simply poor handling?
>>
>> Most things that fall under these categories are so far from local
>> legislation covering animal abuse that the authorities will either laugh
>> at
>> complaints, say they don't handle that, or call the nearest school, or 
>> the
>> school they know about.
>>
>> I've been involved in trying to reclaim a dog who was being neglected by 
>> a
>> grad. The grad owned the dog and we were trying to go through local
>> authorities to reclaim it. The family wanted us to have the dog but each
>> time they tried to send it back, the handler claimed he owned it and they
>> could not do so.
>>
>> The authorities were very professional about what they could and could 
>> not
>> do. They could not, for example, go to the person's home and take the dog
>> based on our, and others' reports. The "neglect", person not feeding the
>> dog, not working it, then allowing it to gain weight significantly,
>> weren't
>> enough to merit reclamation. We needed a court order for them to do so.
>> The
>> person was finally persuaded to return the dog by family, who had been
>> caring for it anyway.
>>
>> So, reporting to local authorities often isn't the answer either. Talking
>> to
>> the person should always be in this program and believe me, we tried 
>> that.
>> Sometimes it doesn't even work.
>>
>> I know that all of us here hate to see someone misusing his or her dog.
>> Whether it's a dog who is overweight, inappropriately corrected, never
>> corrected, or always left at home, we feel as if we need to do something
>> because allowing these things goes against what we know as responsible
>> handling. When I start thinking that way, I then remember the following
>> story about a dear friend and how she chose to work her dog and the
>> consequences.
>>
>> My friend attended a convention. She went into the exhibit hall and to
>> keep
>> track of her place, she taught her dog to take her to the wall at the end
>> of
>> each row so he didn't automatically round a corner without her realizing
>> it.
>> This can happen so easily in a crowd. She would have him take her to the
>> wall, praise him then turn and calculate her position to give him more
>> appropriate and meaningful commands. This helped him not to get stressed
>> in
>> there too as he understood what she wanted.
>>
>> Well, what I heard later about my friend's technique while talking with 
>> an
>> instructor from her school was this:
>>
>> A handler comes up and begins talking to me, not knowing that the
>> instructor
>> is there.
>>
>> "There's a woman in there whose dog is running her into the walls and
>> she's
>> praising it. Can you believe that? I knew School X taught some weird
>> things,
>> but come on. She even uses that stupid clicker when the dog does this.
>> That
>> makes no sense at all. I wonder if her school knows that she doesn't
>> realize
>> what she's doing with the clicker, reinforcing the dog running her into
>> the
>> walls? I'm going to go to their booth and tell them to help her."
>>
>> The instructor was snickering silently and punching my arm. I didn't know
>> about my friend's exhibit hall navigation methods yet. All I could say
>> was,
>> "Oh, well, the exhibit hall is a crazy place." I was stunned. Looking
>> back,
>> I know what I should have said, but hindsight and all that.
>>
>> When the person left, the instructor told me about what my friend was
>> doing.
>> I wanted to go grab that other handler and throttle her. <grin>
>>
>> I've also been reported to an instructor for "punching my dog in the
>> face."
>>
>> What actually happened?
>>
>> I was using my right hand as a target, as many of you have learned to do.
>> I
>> was showing my dog that it was OK to come right up to the edge of a table
>> to
>> show it to me and was using my target hand, with treat properly enclosed.
>> He
>> happily all but slammed his nose into my fist, tail wagging madly. This
>> was
>> interpreted as me dragging him up to a table and punching him in the 
>> face.
>> The instructor explained what I'd done and the person was still a bit
>> incredulous but I wasn't going to demo it for her. We both just shrugged
>> and
>> went on our way.
>>
>> My point? People can witness things and totally misunderstand what's
>> happening.
>>
>> I would really appreciate though knowing what you all think we as a
>> community can do about those among us who are indeed truly not 
>> responsible
>> handlers, in whatever fashion. What makes a responsible handler? At what
>> point does peer counseling become peer pressure, eliciting the opposite
>> result of what we'd wanted?
>>
>> Just some things to think about.
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>>
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