[nagdu] Critical blind people

Mon Aug 2 00:26:30 UTC 2010

I'll echo Julie, Albert. 

I've had a great time at the 2 national conventions I've attended. People
were very nice. I think I only ran into one or two people who weren't but
that's par for the course in any travel situation and I figured they seemed
like they were nasty to everyone equally so it wasn't just me. <grin> 

This year I had time to visit the NFB mall. Sorry, can't recall the name of
the place where all of the NFB products and stuff were sold. That was a
really awesome experience. There were a lot of people working behind the
tables and I'd say if you were newly blind and were the least bit
intimidated about what you could do, that was the place to go. People were
so friendly. 

I saw one man showing a first-timer how to become a talking sign, standing
at the elevators for a few minutes and just saying "elevators, over here.
This way to the elevators." 

I loved this concept at the first convention I attended, people taking a few
minutes to stand by a landmark and shout out what it was, hugely helpful in
terms of getting unlost. <grin> 

Besides, the NAGDU meetings are excellent. I do hope you plan to come to
Orlando. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:28 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

Albert,

I know we complain a lot on this list.  I'm guilty of it too.  Honestly 
though the huge majority of people that I've met at conventions have been 
nice, supportive, helpful and understanding.  I've learned things from other

blind people that never made sense to me anywhere else.  Braille, canes and 
dogs are the norm.  You are among people who understand blindness like no 
other place I've been.

People often refer to other members as their NFB family.  I think I'd agree.

Sure there are some of my family members that I really wouldn't miss if they

didn't show up for Christmas dinner, but overall they are my family and they

are there for me.
Okay, I've gone a bit sappy.  I'll stop, but really do attend a convention 
if for no other reason than to experience it for yourself.

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

> Buddy and all, that is why I live by the simple addage of do unto others 
> as
> you would have them do unto you. I find that the blind community does have
> its fair share of judgemental and opinionated people who forget that for
> some reason. It is my way or the highway with all to many and this is one
> reason I am still very reluctant to attend a convention at all. just know
> that the more we all of us connect and talk the faster those old mind sets
> can be dealt with and irradicated.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Buddy Brannan
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:20 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
> See, this whole thing about how other blind people act towards people with
> additional or different disabilities just blows my mind. We expect sighted
> people to give consideration to us because of our blindness, treat us like
> human beings, not act like idiots, and we won't extend that same respect 
> to
> those different from us? This sounds a lot like the "reverse 
> discrimination"
> that at times racial minority groups heap upon white Americans, for
> instance. Really? We expect respect but won't give it ourselves to those 
> we
> don't understand or who are different from us? Really? And we expect
> different treatment from this why? Maybe we should all look at our own
> behavior and change that? Isn't it one of those leadership principles that
> we should not ask others to do that which we ourselves are not willing to
> do? Pointing at me, too, just in case anyone thinks I'm just getting up on
> my high horse.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> I havenoticed, also, that many blind people have no understanding for
>> people with multiple disabilities. I will throw my own story about
>> this in.
>>
>> When I was at the rehab center here in Raleigh, there was a student
>> who came just for two classes (because she had other classes to attend
>> and needed to concentrate on the two classes carefully for now):
>> Braille and Orientation & Mobility. She was deafblind, and only the
>> teachers who worked with her gave her any notice, the others all
>> avoided contact with her, and I found that none of the other students
>> were even saying Hi to her, not even through her translator (she was
>> deaf first, then blind, so she is very fluent in ASL). I finally
>> decided that it was not something I would condone, this avoidance of a
>> personw tih multiple disabilities. After that, the first chance I got,
>> I sat down next to her, said hi to her translator and let her know
>> that I was just going to chat with Jennifer and that no translation
>> was necessary, as I knew some sign language. Then I placed my hand on
>> Jennifer's upper arm very lightly, a tap really. She immediately
>> extended her hands toward me in what I considered a question like "Who
>> are you, why are you touching me, what's up?" I swiftly signed H-I
>> into her hand, then "my name Jewel" I spelled it out, then gave the
>> sign name I was given by a deaf friend in high school, a J at the
>> eyeridge. She told me she knew someone with that sign name already,
>> and changed mine to a J at the chin. I smiled, nodded acceptance, and
>> we talked a little. Since she was learning the Braille alphabet, I
>> asked her how it was going. Of course, having just started, she said
>> it was hard and we went on from there. It turned out to be quite fun
>> to sit and chat with her...she had a flittering mind like some people
>> are...she could go from one topic to the next without concern for
>> finishing a topic, and I found that kinda relaxing. We talked about
>> everything from classes to cafeteria food to books to volunteer work
>> (she was volunteering at a thrift store with her
>> translator/caregiver).
>>
>> Unfortunately, when I asked her translator if she knew any books on
>> signing that didn't rely heavily on pictures, she said she didn't and
>> would look int it, but found nothing. I would have asked Jenn, but she
>> wasn't around at the moment (in class) and forgot to ask after, but I
>> don't think she would have known of any, especially since she didn't
>> need them, being fluent in ASL.
>>
>> I tried to get other people to talk to Jennifer, whether directly or
>> through her translator, but it didn't work too well. But, toward the
>> end of my time there, Jennifer started making it a point to talk to
>> people when she got to class. One afternoon, she sat down and signed
>> to her translator, who spoke up "Hi everyone, I'm Jennifer.  Who all
>> is in class today?" I saw that as a very good sign (no pun intended!)
>> that my talking with her was showing her that she could make friends
>> with other blind people. It made me feel warm when she did that,
>> because it showed she was thinking of us as other people that she
>> could call friends.
>>
>> There was a discussion a little time back about a a Swiss group, I
>> believe, coming up with a device that helps blind people see the
>> emotions on people's faces. I think that device would be put to much
>> better use as a way for blind people to feel the signs translated into
>> Braille or some such. It can be hard for a deaf person to allow a
>> blind or deafblind person place their hands over theirs as they sign
>> (it slows movements and makes some signs almost impossible to make if
>> the person's hands are not very lightly touching), and a device that
>> translates ASL onto a screen would be good for blind people (tactile
>> display) and sighted people (print display).
>>
>>
>> Another example of multiple disability insensitivity is my own. I have
>> chronic pain and fatigue, and *very* sensitive nerves. I don't like to
>> be touched without warning, because it will set up a flash of pain if
>> I don't brace myself and even then, it flashes pain but at least I
>> know it's coming. However, many people (sighted or blind) feel they
>> have to touch me, give hugs and pats on the back or shoulder, grab my
>> arm to lead me or expect me to hold their arm so they can lead. They
>> don't seem to understand when I say "Please don't pat my back; I have
>> chronic pain and it hurts a lot when you do that." or "I will follow
>> you. I can listen to your feet and see the colour of your shirt. I
>> would rather not touch or be touched." It can be very difficult to get
>> people to understand, even those very close to me. My O&M instructor
>> still likes to give me a pat on the shoulder when I've done well,
>> though I've told him that it hurts and that I'd rather he verbalize
>> things instead)...he has almost knocked me over with his "pats." This
>> sort of thing can also be seen in people who are blind and have
>> autism. Often, autistic people do not wish to be touched because they
>> are sensitive to sensory input and a touch can feel very painful or
>> interfering to a person.
>>
>> Perhaps some kind of sensitivity training would be good for many blind
>> people to learn about multiple disabilities. In NAGDU, this could
>> apply by doing some kind of sensitivity training about how guide dogs
>> work with people with multiple disabilities and how what might seem
>> wrong to one person is how that team works best together. Such
>> discussion could also discuss dogs who have more than one task. For
>> example, Roxy's dogs are guides and also help with pulling laundry
>> hampers around (just an example!). Other guide dogs also have a
>> balance harness to assist with balance, and still others are trained
>> to stop at every curb or driveway, not just intersections, because the
>> handler might stumble on the slope down to the driveway or the step
>> down off the curb. Still others are trained to work with people in
>> motorized wheelchairs, who use a support cane, or who need extra time
>> to listen for traffic at an intersection. I think a discussino on this
>> topic, a conference call or a class with a presentor who has worked
>> with guide dogs who assist people with multiple disabilities (I know
>> GDF has) would be a great thing. What do you guys think?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/1/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> her name is pronounced: ben yay. I'll explain how she finds stalls/sinks
>>> when I have a minute. Am running out the door. <smile>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Hope-
>>>>
>>>> Just read your post.  Please tell me how you pronounce your dog's name-
>>>> I'm
>>>> intrigued.  Also, wondering if you could give me some pointers on how
> you
>>>> trained your guide to find the largest stall and sinks. I've not found 
>>>> a
>>>> good enough way yet. It's a gamble to see if she'll find the stall each
>>>> time, and finding the sink is rare.
>>>> Either way, thanks for listening.
>>>>
>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>>>> Of Hope Paulos
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:14 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>
>>>> I agree, Jenine. I was at several conventions, and when I told my dog 
>>>> to
>>>> "find the elevator" (no matter where I was in the particular hotel)
> she'd
>>>> immediately take me there. I didn't have to say "left" "right", etc. 
>>>> She
>>>> automatically took me there. And this could be from  *anywhere* in the
>>>> hotel... I also trained her to find the largest stall in the restroom,
> the
>>>> sink (restroom) and paper towels (just below the dispenser). Now it's a
>>>> matter of teaching her to find/follow lines and not cut in front of
>>>> people.
>>>> <grin>
>>>> Hope and Beignet
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Susan Jones" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 9:59 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I find the "find" command invaluable, and use it often, especially for
>>>>> trash
>>>>> cans, elevator buttons, stairs, doors, etc.
>>>>> Susan & Rhoda
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Jenine Stanley
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:18 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you have encountered the sentiment that
>>>>> having your dog find common things, like entrances, elevators, etc., 
>>>>> is
>>>>> too
>>>>> hard.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not a GDf brag by any means but this concept of using the 
>>>>> dog's
>>>>> vision and training to help you find things being too much is so
> foreign
>>>>> to
>>>>> how I have been taught for the past 20 years that it boggles my mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> My first group of instructors at GDf told us that we could teach our
> dogs
>>>>> to
>>>>> find just about anything if we used the method we were taught and
> started
>>>>> slowly. We were encouraged throughout class to have the dog find 
>>>>> things
>>>>> and
>>>>> finding entrances and exits was part of every day work. Finding 
>>>>> stairs,
>>>>> elevators, escalators, etc., was as well. During class we have the 
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> find
>>>>> our rooms, not because GDF thinks we can't  but because it does help 
>>>>> to
>>>>> instill that find command. I use this constantly in hotels where I 
>>>>> want
>>>>> the
>>>>> dog to return to my room.
>>>>>
>>>>> We, and when I say we, I mean students, teach the dogs to find "my
> seat"
>>>>> which is either an assigned seat in the dining room during class, or
> any
>>>>> seat I might vacate and leave things at, such as in a meeting. I don't
>>>>> even
>>>>> have to leave my things there necessarily.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hard part about this type of work is allowing the dog to do it,
> make
>>>>> mistakes and get it right. You do have to offer the dog a little
> support
>>>>> at
>>>>> times and not over correct if he or she gets it wrong, but wow, it's a
>>>>> way
>>>>> of working with a dog that maximizes both of your abilities and if you
>>>>> have
>>>>> the least problem with hearing or orientation, this skill can be
>>>>> invaluable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've heard one instructor say that the find command doesn't work
> because
>>>>> people too often misuse it, asking their dogs to find things that
> aren't
>>>>> there or facing one direction and asking the dog to find the door out
> of
>>>>> a
>>>>> room without knowing where it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer to this is that either the people he has seen don't
> understand
>>>>> how
>>>>> the command works or aren't reading their dogs well, or the dogs have
>>>>> never
>>>>> been taught the command and what is expected of them. Dogs and people
> who
>>>>> have been taught the find command and know how to teach it in a 
>>>>> variety
>>>>> of
>>>>> settings, usually get it. I can be facing the back wall of a room and
> ask
>>>>> my
>>>>> dog to "find outside." He may turn a couple times or do a circuit of
> the
>>>>> room until he recognizes the door out but he will find it. This is
>>>>> especially helpful in large open spaces like exhibit halls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, this year in Dallas, Swap found getting out of the exhibit hall
> very
>>>>> challenging some days. So did my wallet but that's another story.
> <grin>
>>>>> There were often crowds, but not necessarily huge crowds, around the
>>>>> entrance so when I asked him to find outside, meaning the way out, he
>>>>> would
>>>>> do a circuit of the room and end up at a booth we liked, always a
>>>>> different
>>>>> one, but usually not necessarily close to the exit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, DUH, Jenine, why not try some positive reinforcement when he 
>>>>> does
>>>>> get
>>>>> it? A little food reward paired with the GDF praise "Good outside!"
>>>>> worked
>>>>> wonders. E
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't even imagine why other blind people or other handlers would
>>>>> criticize using these commands, unless it's for the reasons espoused 
>>>>> by
>>>>> the
>>>>> instructor. If my dog just isn't finding something, chances are it
> really
>>>>> isn't there or he's confused somehow. That's when I can step in and 
>>>>> ask
>>>>> others for help, just pointing me in the right direction usually works
>>>>> but
>>>>> sometimes the dog figures out that the human knows best and will
> default
>>>>> to
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> The key to really getting the most out of the find command though once
>>>>> it's
>>>>> been cemented, is to use it. Expect the dog to find things and reward
>>>>> appropriately. You also need at times to use other humans to help when
>>>>> learning new things to find, like doors, elevators and such in new
>>>>> places.
>>>>> No big deal though. Some dogs are better at words and finding things
> than
>>>>> others too. I've had the spectrum and even the ones who weren't truly
>>>>> word
>>>>> oriented were concept and context oriented and caught on quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.c
>>>> om
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
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