[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Meghan Whalen
mewhalen at gmail.com
Mon Aug 2 13:31:16 UTC 2010
I think ownership upon graduation is a wonderful thing. At Seeing Eye, I
was told that I own the dog, but that if we didn't work out, and she was
still young, they would really appreciate the oppertunity to take her back
to the school to place her with another handler who would be a better match.
Now, I'm not sure, and I would have to call to ask. If I had Juno, and we
didn't work out, and Juno went back to the school, what happens if she
doesn't pass the evaluations and is deemed unfit to be a guide? Do I have
the right to say that if she doesn't, I would like her back as a pet, or do
the raisers get first rights to her?
Of course, putting myself right there, I would like first rights to her, but
on the flip side, if she had only been matched for 2 months, and I had been
the one to raise her, I would feel that I should have first rights to her.
This, however would not be the case, because, I, the raiser, never had any
ownership of the dog.
That being said, I truly hope that if Dayton doesn't make it, I get first
shot at keeping him. On top of that, though, I hope with all my heart that
he does make it, because he will be an amazing dog for someone. I can see
it in how he learns, how he interacts with the world around him, how he
loves, how he gives and how he generally behaves.
Anyways, in not so short, I think it is a double-edged soard, and these dogs
are so wonderful that they quickly find their way into the hearts of others,
so a lot of people want a chance at sharing their lives with them. Those
who have given to make these dogs who they are deserve recognition, but as I
said, I feel that the graduate does deserve first chance at the dog, even if
the dog has been returned to the school to be reevaluated and possibly
rematched.
The school Dayton is being raised for retains ownership of their dogs until
they retire. I'm not sure how I feel about that. From the raiser end, that
makes me kind of happy, because it makes me feel like I'd have a better shot
at adopting him somewhere down the road, but, really, the graduate deserves
ownership.
I do think that when a program is in the beginning stages, it may make sense
to retain ownership of the dogs so they could repossess them easily if they
realize something with the training isn't quite what they thought it was,
and maybe the dogs are unsafe.
I really need to not try to explain myself while I'm still waking up, so
I'll maybe write more on this later.
Meghan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Johnson" <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Hi,
>
> Interesting thread,
> Let me ask, doesn't the school retain the authority to come in and pull a
> dog at any time especially if there is the issue of mistreatment or abuse
> by
> a handler as this would essentially speak volumes about how that school is
> perceived by the general public.
> And, what do the puppy raisers think about the idea of ownership. We hear
> from the handlers, but I would really be curious to hear from puppy
> raisers
> as they invest a heck of a lot of time into these dogs as well.
>
> Just my immediate thoughts for the morning,
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:34 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
> Marion, I couldn't agree more. but, a lot of folks don't care if they own
> their dogs or not and that's fine. what concerns me is that so many folks
> don't believe their schools are behaving in a custodial manner.
>
> Margo andarrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Margo,
>> I think the best approach is to help those who are unaware that there
>> are differences in ownership policy become aware of this fact. Whenever
>> someone either calls me or asks on this list about recommendations for
>> schools, I tell them I am not in a position to make any specific
>> recommendations, but I strongly suggest they choose a school that
>> transfers ownership upon graduation. I am of the opinion that this single
>> policy speaks volumes as to the school's true belief in the inherent
>> capacity of their consumers. After all, we just fought the State of
>> Missouri for taking a child away from its parents. If a blind person is
>> capable of raising children, they certainly are capable of caring for a
>> dog!
>>
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Linda, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know about shutting the
>>> schools down but perhaps revamping staff and policies.
>>>
>>> It makes me wonder if these schools screen their people enough or
>>> something's wrong. Why can't they adopt Seeing eye's model that has
>>> worked for so long.
>>>
>>> but, if the staff and/or policies can't be revamped, yep, shut 'em down.
>>> Hope I still have friends after this post. (smile).
>>>
>>> These schools train wonderful dogs but still don't trust their
>>> graduates.
>>>
>>> margo and Arrow
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>>
>>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having
>>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind
>>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>>> paternalism at its worse! It should be closed down or become the next
>>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and eighties.
>>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old tactics
>>>> that have WORKED.
>>>>
>>>> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that
>>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your applicants.
>>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class.
>>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal
>>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and
>>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small. What
>>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around
>>>> without having to use a white cane? Only someone who has other
>>>> problems
>
>>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even goes
>>>> to the school.
>>>>
>>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
>>>> down!!!
>>>>
>>>> JMO
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> All:
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>>> experience. If
>>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>>
>>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>>>>> decided
>>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun
>>>>> in
>
>>>>> my
>>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>>> planned to
>>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>>> Gardners
>>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when
>>>>> they
>>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>>> neighbor
>>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the
>>>>> open
>>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone I
>>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>>> home.
>>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>>>>> dog's
>>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>>> Regardless of
>>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>>>>> you're
>>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them
>>>>> with
>
>>>>> the
>>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and
>>>>> told
>>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint
>>>>> for
>>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>>> completely
>>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me
>>>>> public
>>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>>>>> prspective.
>>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>>> treatment I
>>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>>> taken
>>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school never
>>>>> gave
>>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>>> Thus,
>>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership
>>>>> of
>>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this
>>>>> seems
>>>>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should
>>>>> not be
>>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use
>>>>> dog
>>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>>> ownership
>>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>>>>> contact
>>>>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>>>>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment as
>>>>> you
>>>>> like.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
>>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready
>>>>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>>> control
>>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> overall.
>>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though
>>>>>>> I
>
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the
>>>>>>> begeezes
>
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't think
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at
>>>>>>> selecting
>
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our dogs..
>>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop that?
>>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>> got
>>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>
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>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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