[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Margo and Arrow
margo.downey at verizon.net
Mon Aug 2 17:24:01 UTC 2010
yes, i still say that with ownership, you'll have fewer people being afraid
of a school confiscating a dog or doing some of the lbackmailing a certain
school is doing or has done.
margo andarrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Jenine,
>
> So it seems that whether or not a school offers ownership, the fear of the
> dog being taken away is definitely impacting handlers from reaching out
> for assistance with problems.
>
> I still think the only way to fix this is to get more of the programs to
> give ownership. Over time the stories of people having their dogs removed
> by the schools will be less and less. I don't think the average dog
> handler worries about animal control removing their dog, unless they are
> truly abusing their dog. In which case the dog probably should be
> removed.
>
> I don't think there is any way to totally, completely eliminate abuse by
> those people who are truly set on it. I do think we can do a lot for the
> large numbers of guide dog handlers who are just going through a rough
> patch.
>
> Julie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Julie,
>>
>> I see your logic here but honestly, we in the GDF Consumer Services
>> Office
>> hear all the time from people who say they were afraid or embarrassed to
>> contact us because they thought we'd come and take the dog, even though
>> they
>> know they have ownership. We've never said to them that we'd take their
>> dog.
>> It was never implied in lectures or anything that I know of, yet this
>> myth
>> persists that we, the school, will take their dog away and so they don't
>> call until the issue is so big it maybe can't be fixed.
>>
>> Then there are the few people who do have issues, either anger or just
>> really lax handling and then say things like "You can't take my dog. I
>> own
>> it."
>>
>> The school can't win, not that winning is the goal. We are perceived as
>> being there only to take the dog away, even if we do grant ownership.
>> Yet,
>> when there are truly poor handlers out there, what's the first thing we
>> hear, from blind and sighted people alike? "Why can't you do something
>> about
>> Mr. X and his dog?"
>>
>> I've heard plenty of TSE grads who say they won't call the school because
>> they are afraid of having their dogs taken away. I counter this with the
>> facts of ownership. Then they say that they are often embarrassed because
>> they feel school staff will think them bad for not doing exactly what
>> they
>> were taught.
>>
>> I will say that I did mention to some of our staff that you catch more
>> flies
>> with honey when it comes to reminding people about their dogs' ideal
>> weight.
>> Yelling at first-time offenders or telling them we will indeed take their
>> dogs is not going to work. Happily this, for the most part, has been
>> dealt
>> with but if any GDF grads do continue to hear such things from any of our
>> staff, we don't know unless you tell us and I'm the one you tell. <grin>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:53 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>> I think the perceived or real threat of a school taking a dog back
>> probably
>> contributes to more abuse.
>>
>> I've been thinking about this a lot lately and things are finally
>> starting
>> to fall in place in my head. So here's my new theory. *smile*
>>
>> Generally abusers start small and work up. The sort that are model
>> citizens
>>
>> and then just snap and go postal are rare. It might start with one bop
>> on
>> the nose for getting into the trash. The small smack may have worked or
>> the
>>
>> person might have felt relief or a sense of control. The next time it is
>> a
>> bit harder. The person gets away with it and in some way is rewarded for
>> their behavior, either because the dog quit or the person stopped feeling
>> frustrated or whatever. Gradually over time a little bit and a little
>> bit
>> more turn into really bad.
>>
>> Somewhere along this slippery slope, the person has probably had the idea
>> that this isn't good. They most likely will try to stop or do something
>> different. Here's the thing though, if they knew to handle the situation
>> differently wouldn't they already be doing that? I think the abuser
>> lacks
>> the ability or resources to remedy the situation on their own. Add in a
>> helping of embarrassment, guilt, frustration and fear of the dog being
>> removed and you have a recipe for a giant crash at the bottom of that
>> slippery slope.
>>
>> What we need to do is to be able to help the person way back in the
>> beginning before the situation gets out of control. I honestly don't
>> think
>> anyone would be really comfortable with calling up their school, who owns
>> their dog, and saying, "Yeah, I got really frustrated with Fido this
>> afternoon and smacked him a good one on the head. I really don't think I
>> should do that and I need help to find other ways of dealing with my
>> anger
>> and frustration." I'm not terribly sure that a handler would call up a
>> school who doesn't have ownership to have that same conversation, but I
>> do
>> think the likelihood of reaching out for help to someone is higher when
>> there isn't the immediate threat of the removal of the dog. I think the
>> fear of removal of the dog by the school may actually increase abuse by
>> using fear to keep the abuser silent.
>>
>> I'm thinking that peer hotline thing is sounding like a better idea all
>> the
>> time.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Oh yes, Marion, I remember that story about the drunken guy kicking the
>>> dog to death. It was a tragety and, you're right, one that could happen
>>> whether the dog was owned by the graduate or not. There are no
>>> guarentees
>>
>>> in life. I know the schools do their best to try to screen the
>>> applicants
>>> as best they know how and it does work most times.
>>>
>>> But the thing about blackmailing (threats of taking back dogs) the
>>> graduates into compliance is absolutely WRONG and we, as blind guide dog
>>> handlers, should NEVER put up with that.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 1:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lyn,
>>>> the school that seems to be the one that is most custodial claims it
>>>> is to protect the dog from the type of abuse inflicted by the guy who
>>>> went into a drunken rage and kicked his dog to death. Of course, what
>>>> is
>>>> omitted is that this was this person's second dog. there is absolutely
>>>> no
>>
>>>> way to be absolutely certain such a thing would not happen again. It is
>>>> a
>>
>>>> tragic incident. However, retaining ownership would not have changed
>>>> the
>>>> situation!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having
>>>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind
>>>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>>>> paternalism at its worse! It should be closed down or become the next
>>>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and
>>>>> eighties.
>>>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old tactics
>>>>> that have WORKED.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that
>>>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your
>>>>> applicants.
>>>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during
>>>>> class.
>>>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to
>>>>> Animal
>>>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works
>>>>> and
>>>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small. What
>>>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move
>>>>> around
>>>>> without having to use a white cane? Only someone who has other
>>>>> problems
>>
>>>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even goes
>>>>> to the school.
>>>>>
>>>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
>>>>> down!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> JMO
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>>>> experience. If
>>>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>>>>>> decided
>>>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun
>>>>>> in
>>
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>>>> planned to
>>>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>>>> Gardners
>>>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>>>> neighbor
>>>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>>>> home.
>>>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>>>>>> dog's
>>>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>>>> Regardless of
>>>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them
>>>>>> with
>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and
>>>>>> told
>>>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>>>>>> prspective.
>>>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>>>> treatment I
>>>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>>>> taken
>>>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> gave
>>>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>>>> Thus,
>>>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>>>>>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a
>>>>>> minority.
>>>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> overall.
>>>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the
>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of
>>>>>>>> ownership?
>>>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though
>>>>>>>> I
>>
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the
>>>>>>>> begeezes
>>
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at
>>>>>>>> selecting
>>
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore
>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our
>>>>>>>> dogs..
>>>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop that?
>>>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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