[nagdu] Critical blind people

Steve Johnson stevencjohnson at centurytel.net
Mon Aug 2 23:16:40 UTC 2010 

Why would you want to reward with a treat when you can achieve the same
results by praise?  Wouldn't they expect that treat then?  Something I would
be leary of myself.  I have found that using the find command has worked
beautifully with all 3 of my guides.  All have been trained through find the
command to find things that are a big paart of my day, and have come in very
handy in questionable situations.  For instance, find the bus shelter is
huge, and the most important, find the pop machine!  This is the beautiful
thing about using the find command and praise as when they see that bottle
of soda roll out into the pick up tray, that is the reward!  
JMO,
Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Hope Paulos
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:38 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

Hi there. I wanted to quickly explain how Itaught my dog to find sinks
(since that is the easiest thing to work on first. What I did was first put
her on leash and take her to a sink at home. I tapped it and labeled it" 
sink". Then I'd step a couple of steps back and ask her to "find the sink". 
If she found it and put her nose on it, I'd click/treat.  I'd do this
several times going the same distance back from the sink. Then I'd slowly
increase the distance-- clicking/treating when she successfully found it.

As far as the stalls, that basically just meant having her find one specific
stall. I started by teaching her to find the one stall in the University's
Language Department restroom. I just told her "find inside". She did, I
clicked/treated. She was then able to generalize quickly without me having
to do much more than that.  I can go into any  restroom, tell her to "find
inside" and she'll take me to the largest stall. If it is occupied, she'll
show me the door, and we'll wait until it's unoccupied.
HTH
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message -----
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people


> oops thought we were talking about food so sorry.
>
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Independent Travel Consultant
> C10-10646
>
> http://Echevarriatravel.com
> 1-866-580-5574
> skype: angeldn3
>
> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
> CST-1018299-10
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
>
>> Hope-
>>
>> I missed this response and asked the question again- oops!
>> Thanks for responding- Benyay it is, and blessings on your day!
>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Hope Paulos
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 10:42 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>
>> her name is pronounced: ben yay. I'll explain how she finds 
>> stalls/sinks when I have a minute. Am running out the door. <smile>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>
>>
>> > Hi Hope-
>> >
>> > Just read your post.  Please tell me how you pronounce your dog's 
>> > name- I'm intrigued.  Also, wondering if you could give me some 
>> > pointers on how you trained your guide to find the largest stall 
>> > and sinks. I've not found a good enough way yet. It's a gamble to 
>> > see if she'll find the stall each time, and finding the sink is 
>> > rare.
>> > Either way, thanks for listening.
>> >
>> > Cathryn (& Abby)
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> > Behalf Of Hope Paulos
>> > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:14 PM
>> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>> >
>> > I agree, Jenine. I was at several conventions, and when I told my 
>> > dog to "find the elevator" (no matter where I was in the particular 
>> > hotel) she'd immediately take me there. I didn't have to say "left" 
>> > "right", etc.
>> > She
>> > automatically took me there. And this could be from  *anywhere* in 
>> > the hotel... I also trained her to find the largest stall in the 
>> > restroom, the sink (restroom) and paper towels (just below the 
>> > dispenser). Now it's a matter of teaching her to find/follow lines 
>> > and not cut in front of people.
>> > <grin>
>> > Hope and Beignet
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Susan Jones" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
>> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 9:59 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>> >
>> >
>> >>I find the "find" command invaluable, and use it often, especially 
>> >>for trash  cans, elevator buttons, stairs, doors, etc.
>> >> Susan & Rhoda
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> >> On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
>> >> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:18 PM
>> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>> >>
>> >> Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you have encountered the sentiment 
>> >> that having your dog find common things, like entrances, 
>> >> elevators, etc., is too hard.
>> >>
>> >> This is not a GDf brag by any means but this concept of using the 
>> >> dog's vision and training to help you find things being too much 
>> >> is so foreign to how I have been taught for the past 20 years that 
>> >> it boggles my mind.
>> >>
>> >> My first group of instructors at GDf told us that we could teach 
>> >> our dogs to find just about anything if we used the method we were 
>> >> taught and started slowly. We were encouraged throughout class to 
>> >> have the dog find things and finding entrances and exits was part 
>> >> of every day work. Finding stairs, elevators, escalators, etc., 
>> >> was as well. During class we have the dogs find our rooms, not 
>> >> because GDF thinks we can't  but because it does help to instill 
>> >> that find command. I use this constantly in hotels where I want 
>> >> the dog to return to my room.
>> >>
>> >> We, and when I say we, I mean students, teach the dogs to find "my 
>> >> seat"
>> >> which is either an assigned seat in the dining room during class, 
>> >> or any seat I might vacate and leave things at, such as in a 
>> >> meeting. I don't even have to leave my things there necessarily.
>> >>
>> >> The hard part about this type of work is allowing the dog to do 
>> >> it, make mistakes and get it right. You do have to offer the dog a 
>> >> little support at times and not over correct if he or she gets it 
>> >> wrong, but wow, it's a way of working with a dog that maximizes 
>> >> both of your abilities and if you have the least problem with 
>> >> hearing or orientation, this skill can be invaluable.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I've heard one instructor say that the find command doesn't work 
>> >> because people too often misuse it, asking their dogs to find 
>> >> things that aren't there or facing one direction and asking the 
>> >> dog to find the door out of a room without knowing where it is.
>> >>
>> >> My answer to this is that either the people he has seen don't 
>> >> understand how the command works or aren't reading their dogs 
>> >> well, or the dogs have never been taught the command and what is 
>> >> expected of them. Dogs and people who have been taught the find 
>> >> command and know how to teach it in a variety of settings, usually 
>> >> get it. I can be facing the back wall of a room and ask my dog to 
>> >> "find outside." He may turn a couple times or do a circuit of the 
>> >> room until he recognizes the door out but he will find it. This is 
>> >> especially helpful in large open spaces like exhibit halls.
>> >>
>> >> Now, this year in Dallas, Swap found getting out of the exhibit 
>> >> hall very challenging some days. So did my wallet but that's 
>> >> another story.
>> >> <grin>
>> >> There were often crowds, but not necessarily huge crowds, around 
>> >> the entrance so when I asked him to find outside, meaning the way 
>> >> out, he would do a circuit of the room and end up at a booth we 
>> >> liked, always a different one, but usually not necessarily close 
>> >> to the exit.
>> >>
>> >> Well, DUH, Jenine, why not try some positive reinforcement when he 
>> >> does get it? A little food reward paired with the GDF praise "Good 
>> >> outside!"
>> >> worked
>> >> wonders. E
>> >>
>> >> I can't even imagine why other blind people or other handlers 
>> >> would criticize using these commands, unless it's for the reasons 
>> >> espoused by the instructor. If my dog just isn't finding 
>> >> something, chances are it really isn't there or he's confused 
>> >> somehow. That's when I can step in and ask others for help, just 
>> >> pointing me in the right direction usually works but sometimes the 
>> >> dog figures out that the human knows best and will default to 
>> >> that.
>> >>
>> >> The key to really getting the most out of the find command though 
>> >> once it's been cemented, is to use it. Expect the dog to find 
>> >> things and reward appropriately. You also need at times to use 
>> >> other humans to help when learning new things to find, like doors, 
>> >> elevators and such in new places.
>> >> No big deal though. Some dogs are better at words and finding 
>> >> things than others too. I've had the spectrum and even the ones 
>> >> who weren't truly word oriented were concept and context oriented 
>> >> and caught on quickly.
>> >>
>> >> Jenine Stanley
>> >> jeninems at wowway.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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