[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Lyn Gwizdak
linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Tue Aug 3 16:42:53 UTC 2010
Hi Jenine,
I'm wondering if the grads who think you'll take their dogs away if they
have problems is based on the fear that the problem is so unsurmountable
that they feel the school will take the dog because it can't work anymore?
I can see a new dog user having a lunging and growling problem and they've
become attached to the dog and fear the school will take the dog. Grads need
to know CLEARLY that the schools are interested in the match working and the
importance in reporting problems while they are small.
Jenine, I was once a graduate of GDF back in the 1970s and I never felt
threatened by having GDF take my dog if I had a problem and I'm sure your
school is still good like that! (grin!)
Folks, don't be embarrassed if you're having a problem. Consult the school
in the beginning before the problem gets too big to fix - and you'd have to
retire the dog! I have found that most problems are very fixable and we
only have to ask for that assistance from the school.
When we go to a particular school, it is hoped that we can build a trusting,
respectful working relationship with the people there. they put in much
time and money in providing us the dogs and training. If we find ourselves
involved with a school that isn't respectful - well, better to go to another
school.
Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Julie,
>
> I see your logic here but honestly, we in the GDF Consumer Services Office
> hear all the time from people who say they were afraid or embarrassed to
> contact us because they thought we'd come and take the dog, even though
> they
> know they have ownership. We've never said to them that we'd take their
> dog.
> It was never implied in lectures or anything that I know of, yet this myth
> persists that we, the school, will take their dog away and so they don't
> call until the issue is so big it maybe can't be fixed.
>
> Then there are the few people who do have issues, either anger or just
> really lax handling and then say things like "You can't take my dog. I own
> it."
>
> The school can't win, not that winning is the goal. We are perceived as
> being there only to take the dog away, even if we do grant ownership. Yet,
> when there are truly poor handlers out there, what's the first thing we
> hear, from blind and sighted people alike? "Why can't you do something
> about
> Mr. X and his dog?"
>
> I've heard plenty of TSE grads who say they won't call the school because
> they are afraid of having their dogs taken away. I counter this with the
> facts of ownership. Then they say that they are often embarrassed because
> they feel school staff will think them bad for not doing exactly what they
> were taught.
>
> I will say that I did mention to some of our staff that you catch more
> flies
> with honey when it comes to reminding people about their dogs' ideal
> weight.
> Yelling at first-time offenders or telling them we will indeed take their
> dogs is not going to work. Happily this, for the most part, has been
> dealt
> with but if any GDF grads do continue to hear such things from any of our
> staff, we don't know unless you tell us and I'm the one you tell. <grin>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:53 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
> I think the perceived or real threat of a school taking a dog back
> probably
> contributes to more abuse.
>
> I've been thinking about this a lot lately and things are finally starting
> to fall in place in my head. So here's my new theory. *smile*
>
> Generally abusers start small and work up. The sort that are model
> citizens
>
> and then just snap and go postal are rare. It might start with one bop on
> the nose for getting into the trash. The small smack may have worked or
> the
>
> person might have felt relief or a sense of control. The next time it is
> a
> bit harder. The person gets away with it and in some way is rewarded for
> their behavior, either because the dog quit or the person stopped feeling
> frustrated or whatever. Gradually over time a little bit and a little bit
> more turn into really bad.
>
> Somewhere along this slippery slope, the person has probably had the idea
> that this isn't good. They most likely will try to stop or do something
> different. Here's the thing though, if they knew to handle the situation
> differently wouldn't they already be doing that? I think the abuser lacks
> the ability or resources to remedy the situation on their own. Add in a
> helping of embarrassment, guilt, frustration and fear of the dog being
> removed and you have a recipe for a giant crash at the bottom of that
> slippery slope.
>
> What we need to do is to be able to help the person way back in the
> beginning before the situation gets out of control. I honestly don't
> think
> anyone would be really comfortable with calling up their school, who owns
> their dog, and saying, "Yeah, I got really frustrated with Fido this
> afternoon and smacked him a good one on the head. I really don't think I
> should do that and I need help to find other ways of dealing with my anger
> and frustration." I'm not terribly sure that a handler would call up a
> school who doesn't have ownership to have that same conversation, but I do
> think the likelihood of reaching out for help to someone is higher when
> there isn't the immediate threat of the removal of the dog. I think the
> fear of removal of the dog by the school may actually increase abuse by
> using fear to keep the abuser silent.
>
> I'm thinking that peer hotline thing is sounding like a better idea all
> the
> time.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Oh yes, Marion, I remember that story about the drunken guy kicking the
>> dog to death. It was a tragety and, you're right, one that could happen
>> whether the dog was owned by the graduate or not. There are no
>> guarentees
>
>> in life. I know the schools do their best to try to screen the applicants
>> as best they know how and it does work most times.
>>
>> But the thing about blackmailing (threats of taking back dogs) the
>> graduates into compliance is absolutely WRONG and we, as blind guide dog
>> handlers, should NEVER put up with that.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 1:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Lyn,
>>> the school that seems to be the one that is most custodial claims it
>>> is to protect the dog from the type of abuse inflicted by the guy who
>>> went into a drunken rage and kicked his dog to death. Of course, what is
>>> omitted is that this was this person's second dog. there is absolutely
>>> no
>
>>> way to be absolutely certain such a thing would not happen again. It is
>>> a
>
>>> tragic incident. However, retaining ownership would not have changed the
>>> situation!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>>
>>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having
>>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind
>>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>>> paternalism at its worse! It should be closed down or become the next
>>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and eighties.
>>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old tactics
>>>> that have WORKED.
>>>>
>>>> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that
>>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your applicants.
>>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class.
>>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal
>>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and
>>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small. What
>>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around
>>>> without having to use a white cane? Only someone who has other
>>>> problems
>
>>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even goes
>>>> to the school.
>>>>
>>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
>>>> down!!!
>>>>
>>>> JMO
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> All:
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>>> experience. If
>>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>>
>>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>>>>> decided
>>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun
>>>>> in
>
>>>>> my
>>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>>> planned to
>>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>>> Gardners
>>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when
>>>>> they
>>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>>> neighbor
>>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the
>>>>> open
>>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone I
>>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>>> home.
>>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>>>>> dog's
>>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>>> Regardless of
>>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>>>>> you're
>>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them
>>>>> with
>
>>>>> the
>>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and
>>>>> told
>>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint
>>>>> for
>>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>>> completely
>>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me
>>>>> public
>>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>>>>> prspective.
>>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>>> treatment I
>>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>>> taken
>>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school never
>>>>> gave
>>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>>> Thus,
>>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership
>>>>> of
>>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this
>>>>> seems
>>>>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should
>>>>> not be
>>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use
>>>>> dog
>>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>>> ownership
>>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>>>>> contact
>>>>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>>>>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment as
>>>>> you
>>>>> like.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
>>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready
>>>>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>>> control
>>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> overall.
>>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though
>>>>>>> I
>
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the
>>>>>>> begeezes
>
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't think
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at
>>>>>>> selecting
>
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our dogs..
>>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop that?
>>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>> got
>>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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