[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: people abusing dogs and ownership
Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com
Tue Aug 3 19:09:40 UTC 2010
Just because neighbors can see and hear what's going on doesn't mean
they would report accurately to the school. What if you had neighbors
who didn't like dogs?
If a neighbor heard me yelling, how would he or she know if I was
yelling at a person, a dog, or a sporting event on tv?
What is wrong with the current system? Out of all the people who have
dogs, how many of them abuse their dogs using legal standards as the
basis?
Before revamping the system, we need to figure out if there really is a
problem
Also, a criminal background check would only pick up recorded behavior.
I don't believe the drunk that killed his dog would have show up in any
criminal check databases.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Johnson
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:09 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Julie,
I believe someone had also previously posted on the issue of more
in-depth
background checks and this may have to go to the level of actual
criminal
background checks. I would personally like to see something to the
degree
of an agency checking with the neighbors as they would most likely have
first-hand observations being so close and not only seeing, but hearing.
However, most schools ask for both professional and character
references.
Just another thought to consider.
One other point, isn't there a national dog guide agency association?
Maybe
it could be one of the goals of NAGDU to work with them to educate them
on
the issue of ownership, and not put one school above another as this
would
create a potentially hostile environment, but come it at in the sense of
developing a blanket policy developed, and agreed upon by all to
implement
such practices and in other areas as well. Just another thought for the
day.
Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:53 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
I think the perceived or real threat of a school taking a dog back
probably
contributes to more abuse.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately and things are finally
starting
to fall in place in my head. So here's my new theory. *smile*
Generally abusers start small and work up. The sort that are model
citizens
and then just snap and go postal are rare. It might start with one bop
on
the nose for getting into the trash. The small smack may have worked or
the
person might have felt relief or a sense of control. The next time it
is a
bit harder. The person gets away with it and in some way is rewarded
for
their behavior, either because the dog quit or the person stopped
feeling
frustrated or whatever. Gradually over time a little bit and a little
bit
more turn into really bad.
Somewhere along this slippery slope, the person has probably had the
idea
that this isn't good. They most likely will try to stop or do something
different. Here's the thing though, if they knew to handle the
situation
differently wouldn't they already be doing that? I think the abuser
lacks
the ability or resources to remedy the situation on their own. Add in a
helping of embarrassment, guilt, frustration and fear of the dog being
removed and you have a recipe for a giant crash at the bottom of that
slippery slope.
What we need to do is to be able to help the person way back in the
beginning before the situation gets out of control. I honestly don't
think
anyone would be really comfortable with calling up their school, who
owns
their dog, and saying, "Yeah, I got really frustrated with Fido this
afternoon and smacked him a good one on the head. I really don't think
I
should do that and I need help to find other ways of dealing with my
anger
and frustration." I'm not terribly sure that a handler would call up a
school who doesn't have ownership to have that same conversation, but I
do
think the likelihood of reaching out for help to someone is higher when
there isn't the immediate threat of the removal of the dog. I think the
fear of removal of the dog by the school may actually increase abuse by
using fear to keep the abuser silent.
I'm thinking that peer hotline thing is sounding like a better idea all
the
time.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Oh yes, Marion, I remember that story about the drunken guy kicking
the
> dog to death. It was a tragety and, you're right, one that could
happen
> whether the dog was owned by the graduate or not. There are no
guarentees
> in life. I know the schools do their best to try to screen the
applicants
> as best they know how and it does work most times.
>
> But the thing about blackmailing (threats of taking back dogs) the
> graduates into compliance is absolutely WRONG and we, as blind guide
dog
> handlers, should NEVER put up with that.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 1:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Lyn,
>> the school that seems to be the one that is most custodial claims
it
>> is to protect the dog from the type of abuse inflicted by the guy who
>> went into a drunken rage and kicked his dog to death. Of course, what
is
>> omitted is that this was this person's second dog. there is
absolutely no
>> way to be absolutely certain such a thing would not happen again. It
is a
>> tragic incident. However, retaining ownership would not have changed
the
>> situation!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>
>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not
having
>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind
>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>> paternalism at its worse! It should be closed down or become the
next
>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and
eighties.
>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old
tactics
>>> that have WORKED.
>>>
>>> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model
that
>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your
applicants.
>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during
class.
>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to
Animal
>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works
and
>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small. What
>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move
around
>>> without having to use a white cane? Only someone who has other
problems
>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even
goes
>>> to the school.
>>>
>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
>>> down!!!
>>>
>>> JMO
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>
>>>
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>> experience. If
>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>
>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>>>> decided
>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the
sun in
>>>> my
>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>> planned to
>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>> Gardners
>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open
when
>>>> they
>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>> neighbor
>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found
the
>>>> open
>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking
everyone I
>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>> home.
>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on
my
>>>> dog's
>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>> Regardless of
>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make
sure
>>>> you're
>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them
with
>>>> the
>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and
>>>> told
>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a
complaint
>>>> for
>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>> completely
>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me
public
>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>>>> prspective.
>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>> treatment I
>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>> taken
>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school
never
>>>> gave
>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>> Thus,
>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained
ownership
>>>> of
>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this
seems
>>>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers
should
>>>> not be
>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who
use
>>>> dog
>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>> ownership
>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is
to
>>>> contact
>>>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>>>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment
as
>>>> you
>>>> like.
>>>>
>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>
>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority
just
>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a
minority.
>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across
with
>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One
or
>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual
could
>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't
ready
>>>>> for
>>>> the
>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable
to
>>>> control
>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer
choice
>>>>> overall.
>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the
others.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might
get
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>> it
>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of
ownership?
>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership,
though I
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the
begeezes
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know
things
>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't
think
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at
selecting
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore
must
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our
dogs..
>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think
twice
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop
that?
>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>> however,
>>>> got
>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs
than
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you
are
>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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