[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Tue Aug 3 22:14:42 UTC 2010
Lyn,
Thanks for the support. I agree, but have discovered the usual mechanisms
for addressing these issues to be, well... I can easily take the subject too
far off guide dogs for this list. But I have discovered I'm going to have
to take matters outside of the system in Oregon and am still finalizing
plans to do so...
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lyn Gwizdak
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 10:55 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Tami,
Good Grief!!!! What morons at your Coimmission for the Blind! How on earth,
do the staff get away with that terrible behavior towards the blind kids or
anyone else???
If I was there, I'd be kicking some serious butt - and not the kids. They'd
probably arrest me! LOL! Hey, they want abuse - well, I could ablige them
real good. Hey, I do have a great punch! LOL!
Hey, where's the Oregon NFB or ACB in this? they need to get on this right
away and end this crap. Like I said, use the old NFB tactics of public
pickets in front of the place and go to the press. Contact the progressive
political groups around the area to join in. I've seen NFB doing this in the
past. Write to your state and federal legislators about this problem.
Organize!!! We need to straighten up this Commission's butts or shut 'em
down!
Invite the press to the pickets - letting the light of day shine on this
crap does wonders to the creeps who do this shit in the darkness of hiding
behinds their walls. Don't allow this to go on another day!
Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Lyn,
>
> I'll add the same for State agencies with that attitude. Good grief! I
> had
> to go in a few weeks ago to get some documents from an instructor -- one
> of
> the few real professionals there, who also happens to be blind. So he
> handed me the documents, and we were attempting to engage in polite chit
> chat, when a group of clearly blind students came down the hall in the
> hesitant careful way of people who are just learning mobility. They were
> all kinda short, so I guess it must have been the summer youth class. The
> instructor and I each stepped back against the wall to let the flock pass
> without interference, making sure to give brief audible cues to let them
> know we were there, then letting them pass en masse through the tricky
> passage around the receptionist desk and into the foyer. There's kind of
> a
> zig zag there with a short wall between the corridor and the entry area.
> I
> happened to be standing on that side, which is a good thing, since I work
> Mitzi on my right side and that put me between her and the wall.
>
> In that light, I could only see shadows really, and some flash of white
> canes inexpertly held. I was also able to see the two much taller people
> who came barreling into the blind students from behind, pushing and
> shoving
> and snapping at them to get out of the way as they were trying to make
> their
> way through that zigzag with its sharp corners on all sides, not to
> mention
> a person pressed against the wall on either side to avoid getting in the
> way...
>
> Suddenly, there were blind kids bouncing everywhere. The blind instructor
> had to press himself practically into the wall and start sidestepping back
> down the corridor to get out of the way. I had to put Mitzi further
> behind
> me on leash -- I would have just dropped it if I weren't worried about its
> getting stepped on. DD was there, and he had to back up, too. I walked
> backwards with my hand on the wall, hoping I didn't run my dog into that
> sharp corner -- or myself! I'm only just to the point where I'm not
> spending more than I actually have to recover from the injuries I received
> from that sort of behavior 4 years ago. I really did *not* want to have
> to
> start a new round for fresh injuries received just from being blind and
> walking into the Oregon Commission for the Blind.
>
> Anyway, we backed around the corner, while the poor kids boinged around
> trying to get themselves sorted out as the social workers continued to
> push
> and shove and snarl at them. The hand I was trailing along the wall --
> instead of holding the guide dog handle -- touched glass and an added
> bounce
> pushed me against the door and it opened. So I just ducked through into
> the
> entry way, with Mitzi already there because she ain't no stupid dog.
>
> I honestly thought about just leaving her there where she was safe and
> bursting back in to raise heck, only I'd left my cane in the car, since I
> was using my guide dog, and I didn't want to be one more person running
> into
> the blind kids. So Mitzi and just blew through the door to the outside so
> I
> could light a cigarette and smoke off my fury. While we waited for DD,
> who
> some minutes waiting for an opportunity to get out the door and join us.
>
> Oh, and did I mention. The OCCB Director's office is right there, and she
> keeps her door open. Whether she was present or not, I do not know, but
> it
> is pretty obvious that her staff feel perfectly comfortable physically
> abusing the clients right in front of her door!
>
> This, in Oregon, is okay. People come out needing physical therapy before
> they can apply whatever living skills they managed to pick up. Then they
> get to learn that their IPE is not going to be met by the agency for some
> spurious reason or another... The agency gets federal funding based on
> the
> number of warm bodies they process through their so-called living skills
> program, so they will simply refuse to do anything else for you until you
> show up... If you end up needing medical treatment and months of physical
> therapy as a result, oh well!
>
> It concerns me now more than ever, because with the School for the Blind
> closed down (land grab by the state), those kids have nowhere else to go
> to
> learn blindness skills. You can bet the mention of the NFB Centers is
> never
> mentioned under the principle of informed choice! And what about all
> those
> returning Vets? Maybe they have another alternative through VA, but I
> worry
> about that. As well as the run of the mill schmucks like me who don't
> deserve it either.
>
> Okay. Rant over. One thing for sure: I won't go in there again. Not
> without a video camera and someone who is prepared to use it. Like you
> say,
> that's gotta stop!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:17 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
> Hi All,
> I changed the subject line of this.
>
> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having real
> ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind people and
> blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is paternalism at
> its
>
> worse! It should be closed down or become the next target of NFB as the
> NAC
>
> places were during the seventies and eighties. Maybe we're becoming too
> nice
>
> and have forgotten about our old tactics that have WORKED.
>
> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that has
> worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your applicants. You
> watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class. After
> the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal Control
> just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and the number
> of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small. What blind person
> would
>
> abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around without having to use
> a
>
> white cane? Only someone who has other problems and many schools are able
> to find this out before the person even goes to the school.
>
> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
> down!!!
>
> JMO
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>
>
>> All:
>>
>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on experience.
>> If
>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>
>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>> decided
>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun in
>> my
>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and planned
>> to
>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>> Gardners
>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when
>> they
>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>> neighbor
>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the open
>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone I
>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her home.
>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>> dog's
>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well. Regardless
>> of
>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>> you're
>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them with
>> the
>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and told
>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint for
>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were completely
>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me public
>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>> prspective.
>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>> treatment
>
>> I
>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being taken
>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school never
>> gave
>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them. Thus,
>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership of
>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this seems
>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should not
>> be
>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use dog
>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>> ownership
>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>> contact
>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment as you
>> like.
>>
>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> of Nimer Jaber
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>
>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>
>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready for
>> the
>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>> control
>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer choice
>>> overall.
>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>
>>>
>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get
>>>> them
>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than wasn't
>> it
>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though I
>>>> see
>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>
>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself think
>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the begeezes
>>>> out
>>>> of
>>>> their dogs.
>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than, say,
>>>> an
>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know things
>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I think
>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't think
>>>> certain
>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at selecting
>>>> or
>>>> training.
>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts, people
>>>> need
>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must be
>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a blind
>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our dogs..
>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>> about
>>>> training them for us.
>>>>
>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>> school
>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop that?
>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not, however,
>> got
>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than any
>>>> other
>>>> school's grads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>>
>>>> Dan W.
>>>>
>>>> -----Or
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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