[nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

Mon Dec 6 00:32:26 UTC 2010

I wouldn't recommend doing it the way I did though.  The only time I wish
there were audible walk signals is at offset intersections.  The dog
sometimes doesn't do any better than I would with a cane and it would be
nice to know where the heck the sidewalk is.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 6:22 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

Yes, and that worked for you. But this street never has much quiet and is 
big. Now, maybe one day I'lll have someone come and describe to me 
thoroughly the full traffic pattern of it and that will help. I would, in 
fact, feel better about it if it had a signal that was audible, but not a 
darned chirping one. It could be similar to some of those in Morristown. But

here everyone who is blind, or most, are adamantly opposed to those because 
we might look dependent. I suspect we will look as much so if we develop 
such fears of crossing a street that we cannot. In an ideal world we would 
all have equal opportunity and equal ability to learn these skills; the 
world is not an ideal or perfect one.

And I also would say that when you make up your mind to learn something or 
conquer something as you did those train tracks, what a wonderfully freeing 
feeling it is.

CL

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

Whole different topic with that last one, but your first point makes sence
because I have one that drives me nuts and the only way I make it across is
by paying extreme attention to the traffic and crossing as soon as I know
the traffic is stopped.  This is the same with the train tracks I was having
problems with.  I fixed that a few nights ago with the perfect opportunity
of having a train coming and it was far enough away that I had time to do
what I needd to do.  My dog is now working fine over them.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:37 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

OK, this is all I'm going to say on this topic. In a few days may not be
soon enough. Sometimes, too, people have fears that they are having to face
other than all of this about the cab thing--demons. I have some; many people

have some. If I told you I have a morbid fear of crossing busy streets,
especially if they have self-actuated lights and it is difficult to
determine that the light is in my favor, will you then condemn me for that?
I think you will. If you see an old woman at a convention frightened out of
her mind because she is tired and can't find a place to sit in the lobby of
the hotel, will you just say, "She ought to get some skills?" I've seen it
done. I think compassion for people and their particular needs is far more
valuable than condemning them because there are some things they haven't
learned yet. There were people from a state in the Federation who used to
treat other Federationists like that. Other Federationists drew away from
those people because they felt inferior to them. Do we have enough blind
guys in the country to treat each other like that? I don't think so. I think

we all need to learn as much as we are able to be independent; we need to
take advantage of opportunities offered to us; but if a guy is 62 or even 42

and he's never had this independence as a blind guy,then is he suddenly
going to be able to do that just because he recently acquired a new dog? I
doubt it. Maybe he will sometime, maybe he won't. But we need to have
compassion because someday we may need to b treated with that same
compassion when we need a job and a little extra help getting it because no
one believes in us, or when we have an accident and could really use some
help and there is no one there to help, or a hundred different things.

I'mdone on the topic now because in a way I'm just saying things that have
already been said on this topic.

CL

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

Can't just suddenly occur?  News flash.    If you go to a school that gives
you the proper tools and teaches you how to use the tools properly, you can
teach a dog a new route or location that you frequently go to in a few days.

Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:20 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

Maybe eventually the dog will be taught the route; that teaching, however,
can't just suddenly occur. I think we need to leave off judging the guy, and

maybe even the city, or not. I don't know why they made the ruling.

Cindy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: ""NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>"
<=?US-ASCII?Q?=22NAGDU_Mailing_List=2C=09the_National_Associa?=
=?US-ASCII?Q?tion_of_Guide_Dog_Users=22_=3Cnagdu=40nfbnet=2Eorg=3E?=>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled

People,
If you have a dog teach the dog the route. It's not that hard and not that
big of a problem.
Jordan

"Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:

>Okay, I'm supposed to be studying for my finals, but I just can't help
>myself.
>First and foremost, this is a news article. We don't have the whole
>story,
>and some of the information could be incorrect. Looking what we do
>have,
>this is what I get out of it:
>
>1. Getting through that particular part is hard even for sighted
>people.
>
>2. There were supposed to be chirping sounds to direct blind people to
>Braille signs.
>a. Those sounds weren't there.
>b. Even if they were there, imagine trying to follow a sound in a
>crowded
>area. May I remind the list members that some blind people also have
>hearing
>problems, so follow the sound can be harder for some people than for
>others.
>
>3. The man was not notified of this prior to his trip home. Had he been
>
>notified, he could have and probably would have been prepared. The
>powers
>that be probably did not realize what they were doing, but there needs
>to be
>a way to notify people of these things.
>
>4. The city did this supposedly for a reason. They probably did not
>realize
>what this was going to do. Regardless of blindness or not, they made a
>mistake. Supposedly it is about safety, and they just screwed the bolt
>a
>little too tight and need to back up and fix it. It sounds like they
>are
>trying to fix it.
>
>Other points
>
>1. It is my personal and humble opinion that those who are blind are
>entitled to the same information in a similar way as sighted people. If
>
>sighted person can read a menu in a restaurant independently, and I can
>read
>Braille, then the menu should be in Braille. If there are directional
>signs
>saying which way to go, they should be in Braille or have audible
>directions. If neither of these is possible, that is when you start
>looking
>for other solutions, either having an escort or allowing the person who
>is
>meeting them to come in.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled
>
>
>> Ever tried to get a cab in NYC, with a guide dog? If it's anything
>like
>> Dallas, or countless other big cities, regardless what the law says,
>it
>> ain't always that easy. If you can have an arrangement with a
>particular
>> driver, group of drivers, or company, it's often the difference
>between
>> getting where you're going and waiting for hours while cabs pass you
>up
>> because they don't want your dirty, unclean, etc. etc. dog in their
>cab.
>> Like Isaid, doesn't matter what the law says, the fact of the matter
>is,
>> cab access is something we're still fighting. And too often, we have
>to be
>> pragmatic about the thing and make our arrangements the way this guy
>has.
>> Whatever you think about how this guy should be making his way
>wherever,
>> this is a really stupid policy on the part of the transit authority,
>> anyway. Seems fairly arbitrary, too.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2010, at 4:16 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>
>>> It's an issue now, and he needs to make a choice either to walk to
>where
>>> that cab company can pick him up at or change cab companies.  If he
>has
>>> other disabilities then this would be a different situation.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:52 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of
>disabled
>>>
>>> When the guy chose to use that cab company, this was not an issue.
>You
>>> guys,
>>>
>>> this is really a rude way to treat a person. Suppose you wanted his
>guy
>>> to
>>> come into the Federation and suppose he had joined this thread and
>saw
>>> these
>>>
>>> condemning messages. If you were that guy, would that make you want
>to be
>>> a
>>> member? You would think we were a bunch of blind snobs. I know this
>>> because
>>> I've treated people like this in my past. I could have helped them
>more
>>> if I
>>>
>>> had been compassionate and tried to find a way to understand where
>they
>>> are
>>> and then try to help the person.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of
>disabled
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>> I agree with you completely.  I bet if the route is done a few
>times, the
>>> dog will pick it up and automatically go in the right direction.
>For
>>> example, I can be about a half mile away from my dorm, and September
>will
>>> get me back to it without any input from me.Another thing too is
>that
>>> just
>>> becayse tiy are blind doesn't entitle you to any special treatment.
>If
>>> you
>>> freely choose to use a cab company that doesn't have a contract,
>well,
>>> you
>>> should have to do what everyone else does.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 10:02 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of
>disabled
>>>
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>
>>>    I thought he got a guide dog to enhance his ability to travel
>>> independently including negotiating his way from the fairy terminal
>to
>>> the
>>> cab pick-up area. Johnny and I deal with similar situations all the
>time.
>>> It's no big deal. If you have a mobility issue that's one thing but
>an
>>> able-bodied blind individual including those accompanied by guide
>dogs
>>> should be able to manage such routes with little or no trouble.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 8:24 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled
>>>
>>>
>>> New city TLC cab policy blind to needs of disabled
>>> Published: Sunday, December 05, 2010, 5:53 AM     Updated:
>>> Sunday, December 05, 2010, 6:01 AM
>>> Jeff Harrell
>>>
>>> <http://blog.silive.com/around_the_block_column/2010/12/new_city_
>>> tlc_cab_policy_blind_to_needs_of_disabled.html>
>>> http://blog.silive.com/around_the_block_column/2010/12/new_city_t
>>> lc_cab_policy_blind_to_needs_of_disabled.html
>>>
>>> STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- It's tough enough getting to a cab outside
>>> the St. George Ferry Terminal with your health fully intact.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Staten Island Advance/Hilton FloresLivery cabs not under contract
>>> with the city line up on Richmond Terrace, waiting for ferry
>>> commuters.
>>>
>>> Just making your way into and out of the terminal involves
>>> following a convoluted path filled with cones, barrel barriers
>>> and signs telling you to go there, turn here, and oh well ... too
>>> bad if you end up at a dead-end.
>>>
>>> None of the signs wishes you luck if you're disabled and have a
>>> special arrangement with a cab company that isn't one of the
>>> city's Chosen Four allowed to pick up and drop off commuters on
>>> the Ferry Terminal's property anymore.
>>>
>>> Just ask Dana Avant.
>>>
>>> Dana is blind and totally dependent on his new guide dog to get
>>> around on foot, a black Lab named Aidan he just partnered with
>>> two weeks ago.
>>>
>>> When Dana needs a ride from the ferry to his apartment in Fox
>>> Hills, the 62-year-old retired child welfare social worker calls
>>> ahead to Grant City Car Service to be there waiting when he gets
>>> off the boat.
>>>
>>> "I use Grant City all the time, and they're very nice, very
>>> courteous," Dana says. "They say, 'Call us when you're on the
>>> boat and we'll be waiting for you.'"
>>>
>>> Last Friday when Dana got off the boat, Grant City couldn't make
>>> it.
>>>
>>> "They told me they were no longer allowed to come into the
>>> terminal," Dana recalls.
>>>
>>> Instead, the cab sat out on Richmond Terrace - a hike, several
>>> skips and numerous jumps from the terminal for even the heartiest
>>> of commuters with 20/20 vision.
>>>
>>>
>>> 0
>>> Share  0 Comments
>>> Staten Island Advance/Irving SilversteinDana Avant, ouside his
>>> home in Fox Hills with his service dog. He's blind and having
>>> trouble with taxis not being allowed on ferry termnal property.
>>> (Staten Island Advance/Irving Silverstein)
>>> "How in the hell am I going to know where that is if I can't
>>> see?" Dana asks, still exasperated at the lunacy of the
>>> situation. "I couldn't get out there if I had to ... and I had
>>> to."
>>>
>>> Standing blind in a panic with Aidan by his side, Dana received
>>> assistance from a passerby who helped him flag down a cab.
>>>
>>> The following Monday, Dana phoned the non-emergency 311 number to
>>> complain. What he dialed into was a bureaucratic circle of
>>> goofiness that made the Ferry Terminal's parking lot look like a
>>> straight answer.
>>>
>>> The 311 operator told Dana to call DOT or TLC, the city's Taxi &
>>> Limousine Commission.
>>>
>>> "They gave me the service number at the Ferry Terminal," Dana
>>> says.
>>>
>>> Dana thanked the phone reps for playing pass the buck and called
>>> the Ferry Terminal.
>>>
>>> The man who picked up assured Dana the honchos in charge were
>>> doing everything to make the Terminal accessible for the blind,
>>> including the installation of Braille directional signs
>>> designated by "chirping birds." Dana was told to keep his ears
>>> peeled for the chirping birds.
>>>
>>> "I never heard any chirping birds," Dana says.
>>>
>>> Then, the terminal guy got terminally chirpy with Dana.
>>>
>>> "He said, 'We have nothing to do with this. Try TLC. They're the
>>> ones that made the ruling.'"
>>>
>>> Dana's snicker over going 'round and 'round for a ride home by a
>>> cab company he deals with regularly is worth a thousand chirps.
>>>
>>> "I don't know what bureaucrat thought this up," Dana says.
>>>
>>> This, meaning, the city's contract that only allows taxis from
>>> four companies - Clove Lakes, Island Wide, DeJoy's and Newport -
>>> near the ferry ramp.
>>>
>>> All other car services, including Grant City Car Service,
>>> Access-A-Ride Taxi and others that accommodate the disabled, are
>>> prohibited from driving on the ferry ramp because the city's
>>> contract forbids outside competition from picking up fares on
>>> terminal property.
>>>
>>> "It's a public place," insists a lone United Cabs cabbie parked
>>> on Richmond Terrace Tuesday afternoon waiting in vain for anybody
>>> to hoof it out to the street through a drizzling rain looking for
>>> a ride. "Why do you have a private contract that keeps us out?"
>>>
>>> Allan J. Fromberg, TLC's deputy commissioner of public
>>> information, says the contract keeps "gypsy cabs" from converging
>>> on people during the terminal's rush hours and transporting them
>>> in vehicles that are unlicensed, uninsured, uninspected and
>>> driven by cabbies who have not been drug-tested.
>>>
>>> "It was like the wild, wild west," Fromberg says of the taxi
>>> free-for-all at the terminal prior to the contract.
>>>
>>> Since prohibiting cab companies from picking up pre-arranged
>>> disabled passengers at a convenient spot outside the terminal
>>> borders on the absurd, Fromberg says MTA is compiling a list of
>>> "black car services" not stipulated in the contract that would be
>>> allowed to pick up and drop off on the property.
>>>
>>> A DOT spokeswoman says those cabs, which would be marked to let
>>> the terminal's enforcement personnel know they are "legit," will
>>> be able to pick up and drop off passengers at a designated area
>>> "at the former taxi drop-off/pickup ramp."
>>>
>>> "We're going to make sure there's a place they can do it,"
>>> Fromberg says. "We just have to dot the I's and cross the T's. We
>>> have an obligation to make sure that the car they hop into is
>>> insured, inspected and safe."
>>>
>>> That's fine with Dana, as long as he and his guide dog don't have
>>> to feel their way out to Richmond Terrace to hunt down a ride
>>> home.
>>>
>>> "Suppose somebody has orthopedic or mobility problems," Dana
>>> asks. "This could disenfranchise the disabled community."
>>>
>>> Even a blind man can see that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.
c
>>> om
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gma
i
>>> l.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gma
i
>>> l.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>
>> nagdu:
>>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecab
le.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>nagdu mailing list
>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>nagdu:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gma
il.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gmai
l.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gmai
l.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jgallacher1987%40gmai
l.com