[nagdu] enforcement of laws was Hawaii

Thu Dec 9 12:44:16 UTC 2010

tami,

I would wholeheartedly support enforcement of current laws or even new ones 
that focused on behavior.  I think poor behavior is the real problem anyway. 
It irritates me when people that aren't disabled take their pets into 
public, but I could live with it if they behaved appropriately.  I can't 
live with invasions of my privacy or infringement on my civil rights, which 
is where I see certification.

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii

> Julie,
>
> My thing is that I think it would be just dandy to crack down on the 
> frauds
> when they're caught and fine them to within an inch of their lives or 
> throw
> them in jail, stuff like that.  Can't remember right now what penalties 
> are
> in the law, but I'm thinking there are some.
>
> That way, they're cracking down on the people who are breaking the law
> instead of cracking down on those who are.
>
> Kinda over simplistic, I know, but I get irritable over new rules to make 
> up
> for the fact the existing rules aren't enforced, so people break them... 
> it
> just seems silly and annoying.
>
> I feel a lot that way about access issues, too.  If the law is there but 
> it
> takes a zillion years in court to have it enforced, then I guess that 
> tells
> me why I just need to plan to have to deal with stupid access issues from
> someone who knows the law and just doesn't want to follow it.  Sigh.
>
> Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but I seem to notice in articles about
> issues in other countries, the fines are steep and are levied right quick 
> by
> the relevant authorities.  This doesn't seem to be the case so much 
> here...
> I've never had to call in the authorities over an access issue (yet), but
> when I get a whiff that one might be coming up, I really wonder if calling
> them in will do anything to improve my situation.  Depends on the cop, I
> guess.  I'm not that eager to find out how our local police do when 
> there's
> a line-in-the-sand confrontation.  I just wish I could rest assured about
> the matter, just in case.  /smile/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:04 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
> Jordan,
>
> Okay, how is this going to work exactly?
>
> I owner train my guides. Not self train.  the dog doesn't train itself. 
> I'm
>
> interested to know how certification could work.
>
> How I work my dogs is probably different from the way the dogs from a
> program work.  What about someone who has some useable vision and uses 
> their
>
> dog as a low vision aid?  Who is going to certify me and/or my dog?  How 
> is
> that going to not violate my civil rights?  Who is going to pay for this
> certification?  How does this certification prove that in two months or
> under different circumstances my dog is going to behave?  What criteria 
> are
> going to be used in this certification?  Where is this harness going to 
> come
>
> from?  Who is going to pay for it?  What if it doesn't fit my needs?
>
> I'm all for wedding out the fraudulent service dog handlers and/or ill
> behaved service dogs, but I cannot figure out how this could work while
> respecting everyone's civil rights.
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
>> This is where the ADA needs to be changed.  All someone can ask is is 
>> that
>
>> a
>> service animal.  Well, there really should be a requirement that even 
>> self
>> trained service animals are licensed with an official i.d. card, such as
>> something that states that it is a service animal. And two, if it is a
>> self
>> trained animal, you should need to have the dog pass an examination,
>> working
>> wise, and then issued a harness that says something like certified 
>> service
>> animal.  And also, the ADA should be changed to allow someone to ask for
>> documentation.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Jenine Stanley
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Thanks much Julie.
>>
>> I think we would all like to simply travel to anywhere in the world
>> without
>> restrictions but reality doesn't always permit that.
>>
>> The reason there are in fact such requirements as submission of titer
>> tests
>> and a health certificate is that the vaccine has not been 100% proven to
>> prevent Rabies. In the opinion of the Hawaiian government, this is not
>> sufficient to insure the safety of the state. Although federal law
>> regarding
>> access rights and other civil rights does trump state law in most cases,
>> when it comes to public health, things get messy.
>>
>> The other issue rearing its ugly head is fraud. We all know Julie and her
>> dog and that she is a competent owner-trainer. What about the guy who 
>> buys
>
>> a
>> harness on line, and there are lots of places one can do just that, or a
>> service dog vest or patches, and calls his well behaved family pet his
>> service dog, just so it can go to Hawaii with him on vacation. During 
>> that
>> vacation, the dog is allowed to run on the beach and maybe even around 
>> the
>> time share property freely as a pet, because after all, what do pets do?
>>
>> This scenario did actually play out. I got a phone call at 11:00pm one
>> night
>> from someone in the Hawaii Quarantine office. Someone had come through 
>> the
>> airport with a dog claiming it was a guide dog, but the airline knew
>> nothing
>> about it, allowed the person on the plane, big no-no to start, and then
>> didn't notify the quarantine office about the person's arrival. The dog
>> was
>> not a guide and was never tracked down. The airline admitted they screwed
>> up
>> in not asking any questions, but did assure the quarantine office that 
>> the
>> person wasn't blind. How they knew this is a mystery to me, but let's 
>> just
>> say the Hawaiian government was not happy.
>>
>> The reason I got this call was that they were trying to figure out if the
>> guide dog schools or GDUI kept a registry of people and could they check
>> names against it. I said that each school had a list of its active
>> graduates, but they'd have to call each one to find this out. Let's just
>> say
>> that time was of the essence and they were not in the mood to deal with
>> this. It happened shortly after the settlement went into place so I
>> suspect
>> someone read all the PR articles and thought, ehy, let me try this.
>>
>> Though I'd love to have a way for people to get into Hawaii with the 
>> least
>> amount of paperwork, some is going to be necessary. I think local
>> licensing
>> as an assistance dog will work in terms of proof of identity but I'll 
>> need
>> to check that one out. Local licensing is about the only means someone 
>> who
>> owner trains has of proof of identity anyway if he or she wants to travel
>> to
>> another country that has such a quarantine or other ID requirements.
>>
>> I suspect that as budgets tighten around the country, the less paperwork
>> required and the less staff time required to achieve anything will win
>> out.
>> So, you never know what or how the requirements will be changed.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:13 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Jordan and Dan,
>>
>> I have pretty well stayed out of the Hawaii debate this time around.
>> We've
>> talked about it in the past and I've been free with my opinion.  So I
>> guess
>> I'll throw caution to the wind and share my thoughts. *smile*
>>
>> I agree with the two of you.  It isn't fair that people with guide dogs
>> have
>>
>> to go through so many extra steps to travel to Hawaii.  furthermore as an
>> owner trainer, I am unsure that it is even possible for me to travel to
>> Hawaii.  I am very much in favor of improving ease of travel to Hawaii.
>>
>> but I'm also torn because Hawaii is rabies free.  I can understand how
>> devastating it would be to introduce rabies to the islands.  However I
>> would
>>
>> think that proof of the vaccine or proof of immunity through a titer test
>> would be sufficient.  not sure how to accomplish that without some sort 
>> of
>> extra paperwork requirement.
>>
>> I would also like to acknowledge the great work Of Jenine Stanly and GDUI
>> for working diligently to improve the situation.  I don't think it's fair
>> to
>>
>> expect massive social change overnight, but Jenine made an incredible 
>> leap
>> forward from where things were previously in Hawaii.  I totally 
>> completely
>> agree with her when she talked about getting as much as they could in the
>> settlement and working on the rest later.   "It is better to do something
>> imperfectly than nothing perfectly." that's a quote I read yesterday,
>> sorry
>> I can't remember whose quote it is.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Dan.   You seem to be one of the few on this group who see things
>>> the
>>> same way I do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Dan Weiner
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:15 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> What is of concern to me, Dan, anyway, is that we have to show any
>>> paperwork, have international health certificates, blood tests, and so
>>> on,
>>> for a state of the USA in order to be accompanied by our guide dogs.
>>> This is something I've only had to do when I travel to other countries.
>>> If
>>
>>> I
>>> had to do this every time I traveled to another state here, I'd be 
>>> forced
>>> not to bring my dog with me often and I'm a safer traveler with a dog.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it may never be resolved, but that's my opinion and what I 
>>> at
>>> least find objectionable.
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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