[nagdu] enforcement of laws was Hawaii

Thu Dec 9 14:54:09 UTC 2010

Julie, at the risk of being the lump in the cream of wheat (lord I hate that 
stuff,) if animal was managed and trained--and groomed--in a way which would 
make the beast inobtrussive, you would very rarely even know they were 
present.

Doug: Barking up the right tree?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] enforcement of laws was Hawaii

> tami,
>
> I would wholeheartedly support enforcement of current laws or even new 
> ones that focused on behavior.  I think poor behavior is the real problem 
> anyway. It irritates me when people that aren't disabled take their pets 
> into public, but I could live with it if they behaved appropriately.  I 
> can't live with invasions of my privacy or infringement on my civil 
> rights, which is where I see certification.
>
> Julie
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
>> Julie,
>>
>> My thing is that I think it would be just dandy to crack down on the 
>> frauds
>> when they're caught and fine them to within an inch of their lives or 
>> throw
>> them in jail, stuff like that.  Can't remember right now what penalties 
>> are
>> in the law, but I'm thinking there are some.
>>
>> That way, they're cracking down on the people who are breaking the law
>> instead of cracking down on those who are.
>>
>> Kinda over simplistic, I know, but I get irritable over new rules to make 
>> up
>> for the fact the existing rules aren't enforced, so people break them... 
>> it
>> just seems silly and annoying.
>>
>> I feel a lot that way about access issues, too.  If the law is there but 
>> it
>> takes a zillion years in court to have it enforced, then I guess that 
>> tells
>> me why I just need to plan to have to deal with stupid access issues from
>> someone who knows the law and just doesn't want to follow it.  Sigh.
>>
>> Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but I seem to notice in articles about
>> issues in other countries, the fines are steep and are levied right quick 
>> by
>> the relevant authorities.  This doesn't seem to be the case so much 
>> here...
>> I've never had to call in the authorities over an access issue (yet), but
>> when I get a whiff that one might be coming up, I really wonder if 
>> calling
>> them in will do anything to improve my situation.  Depends on the cop, I
>> guess.  I'm not that eager to find out how our local police do when 
>> there's
>> a line-in-the-sand confrontation.  I just wish I could rest assured about
>> the matter, just in case.  /smile/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:04 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> Okay, how is this going to work exactly?
>>
>> I owner train my guides. Not self train.  the dog doesn't train itself. 
>> I'm
>>
>> interested to know how certification could work.
>>
>> How I work my dogs is probably different from the way the dogs from a
>> program work.  What about someone who has some useable vision and uses 
>> their
>>
>> dog as a low vision aid?  Who is going to certify me and/or my dog?  How 
>> is
>> that going to not violate my civil rights?  Who is going to pay for this
>> certification?  How does this certification prove that in two months or
>> under different circumstances my dog is going to behave?  What criteria 
>> are
>> going to be used in this certification?  Where is this harness going to 
>> come
>>
>> from?  Who is going to pay for it?  What if it doesn't fit my needs?
>>
>> I'm all for wedding out the fraudulent service dog handlers and/or ill
>> behaved service dogs, but I cannot figure out how this could work while
>> respecting everyone's civil rights.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>>
>>> This is where the ADA needs to be changed.  All someone can ask is is 
>>> that
>>
>>> a
>>> service animal.  Well, there really should be a requirement that even 
>>> self
>>> trained service animals are licensed with an official i.d. card, such as
>>> something that states that it is a service animal. And two, if it is a
>>> self
>>> trained animal, you should need to have the dog pass an examination,
>>> working
>>> wise, and then issued a harness that says something like certified 
>>> service
>>> animal.  And also, the ADA should be changed to allow someone to ask for
>>> documentation.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jenine Stanley
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:08 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> Thanks much Julie.
>>>
>>> I think we would all like to simply travel to anywhere in the world
>>> without
>>> restrictions but reality doesn't always permit that.
>>>
>>> The reason there are in fact such requirements as submission of titer
>>> tests
>>> and a health certificate is that the vaccine has not been 100% proven to
>>> prevent Rabies. In the opinion of the Hawaiian government, this is not
>>> sufficient to insure the safety of the state. Although federal law
>>> regarding
>>> access rights and other civil rights does trump state law in most cases,
>>> when it comes to public health, things get messy.
>>>
>>> The other issue rearing its ugly head is fraud. We all know Julie and 
>>> her
>>> dog and that she is a competent owner-trainer. What about the guy who 
>>> buys
>>
>>> a
>>> harness on line, and there are lots of places one can do just that, or a
>>> service dog vest or patches, and calls his well behaved family pet his
>>> service dog, just so it can go to Hawaii with him on vacation. During 
>>> that
>>> vacation, the dog is allowed to run on the beach and maybe even around 
>>> the
>>> time share property freely as a pet, because after all, what do pets do?
>>>
>>> This scenario did actually play out. I got a phone call at 11:00pm one
>>> night
>>> from someone in the Hawaii Quarantine office. Someone had come through 
>>> the
>>> airport with a dog claiming it was a guide dog, but the airline knew
>>> nothing
>>> about it, allowed the person on the plane, big no-no to start, and then
>>> didn't notify the quarantine office about the person's arrival. The dog
>>> was
>>> not a guide and was never tracked down. The airline admitted they 
>>> screwed
>>> up
>>> in not asking any questions, but did assure the quarantine office that 
>>> the
>>> person wasn't blind. How they knew this is a mystery to me, but let's 
>>> just
>>> say the Hawaiian government was not happy.
>>>
>>> The reason I got this call was that they were trying to figure out if 
>>> the
>>> guide dog schools or GDUI kept a registry of people and could they check
>>> names against it. I said that each school had a list of its active
>>> graduates, but they'd have to call each one to find this out. Let's just
>>> say
>>> that time was of the essence and they were not in the mood to deal with
>>> this. It happened shortly after the settlement went into place so I
>>> suspect
>>> someone read all the PR articles and thought, ehy, let me try this.
>>>
>>> Though I'd love to have a way for people to get into Hawaii with the 
>>> least
>>> amount of paperwork, some is going to be necessary. I think local
>>> licensing
>>> as an assistance dog will work in terms of proof of identity but I'll 
>>> need
>>> to check that one out. Local licensing is about the only means someone 
>>> who
>>> owner trains has of proof of identity anyway if he or she wants to 
>>> travel
>>> to
>>> another country that has such a quarantine or other ID requirements.
>>>
>>> I suspect that as budgets tighten around the country, the less paperwork
>>> required and the less staff time required to achieve anything will win
>>> out.
>>> So, you never know what or how the requirements will be changed.
>>>
>>> Jenine Stanley
>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:13 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> Jordan and Dan,
>>>
>>> I have pretty well stayed out of the Hawaii debate this time around.
>>> We've
>>> talked about it in the past and I've been free with my opinion.  So I
>>> guess
>>> I'll throw caution to the wind and share my thoughts. *smile*
>>>
>>> I agree with the two of you.  It isn't fair that people with guide dogs
>>> have
>>>
>>> to go through so many extra steps to travel to Hawaii.  furthermore as 
>>> an
>>> owner trainer, I am unsure that it is even possible for me to travel to
>>> Hawaii.  I am very much in favor of improving ease of travel to Hawaii.
>>>
>>> but I'm also torn because Hawaii is rabies free.  I can understand how
>>> devastating it would be to introduce rabies to the islands.  However I
>>> would
>>>
>>> think that proof of the vaccine or proof of immunity through a titer 
>>> test
>>> would be sufficient.  not sure how to accomplish that without some sort 
>>> of
>>> extra paperwork requirement.
>>>
>>> I would also like to acknowledge the great work Of Jenine Stanly and 
>>> GDUI
>>> for working diligently to improve the situation.  I don't think it's 
>>> fair
>>> to
>>>
>>> expect massive social change overnight, but Jenine made an incredible 
>>> leap
>>> forward from where things were previously in Hawaii.  I totally 
>>> completely
>>> agree with her when she talked about getting as much as they could in 
>>> the
>>> settlement and working on the rest later.   "It is better to do 
>>> something
>>> imperfectly than nothing perfectly." that's a quote I read yesterday,
>>> sorry
>>> I can't remember whose quote it is.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks Dan.   You seem to be one of the few on this group who see 
>>>> things
>>>> the
>>>> same way I do.
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Dan Weiner
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:15 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>>
>>>> What is of concern to me, Dan, anyway, is that we have to show any
>>>> paperwork, have international health certificates, blood tests, and so
>>>> on,
>>>> for a state of the USA in order to be accompanied by our guide dogs.
>>>> This is something I've only had to do when I travel to other countries.
>>>> If
>>>
>>>> I
>>>> had to do this every time I traveled to another state here, I'd be 
>>>> forced
>>>> not to bring my dog with me often and I'm a safer traveler with a dog.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I know it may never be resolved, but that's my opinion and what I 
>>>> at
>>>> least find objectionable.
>>>>
>>>> Dan W.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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