[nagdu] owner trained dogs

Fri Dec 10 04:32:27 UTC 2010

I wasn't sure about this one at first, but I agree with Tami and Rox.
I think that as long as you can show your dog can work well for you or
whatever the law actually says, your good to go.  Yes, people who get
there dogs from programs have certification cards.  Yes, these are
rather helpful, but should they be necessary?  No.  It doesn't make
sense.  That would mean that somehow owner trainers are beneath
program trained dogs, which is so not the truth.  You owner trainers
really impress me, if and only if, it's because of what Tami said.  If
you do something wrong, it's you who has to pay for it.  I'm such a
perfectionist, this scares me crazy.  So...  Owner trainers are
awesome and shouldn't be left out or unfairly treated.  I've been in
situations before, where if I hadn't had that "doggy id" I felt like I
would have been in trouble.  I've always wondered what owner trainers
would do.  It's easy enough to argue that the law says you don't need
it, but would they believe you?  Have any of you encountered a problem
like this?

On 12/9/10, Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Oh, goodie!
>
> Can they help pay for it?  All of it???
>
> Still not sure how making me get a proper i.d. for my dog witll cut down on
> fraud or protect people from bad behavior of legit sd/gds or fake ones.
>
> I repsect other people's opions, honestly, I do.  But when people are
> getting together to do something to crack down on a problem I am not part of
> in a way that will cost me time and money if they have their way...
>
> Can we please look at another option?
>
> Speaking for the other owner-trainers on this list as well as myself, can we
> please remember that we spend more than our time to come up with a guide
> dog?  We pay for travel and acquisition of a guide dog prospect.  We pay for
> exams to ensure our chosen prospect is healthy.  We pay for vaccinations
> from the get-go, for spaying and neutering, for every single puppy issue
> that crops up.  We pay for training supplies.  If we don't happen to have a
> driver handy for car training, we pay for cabs to teach our dogs to have
> manners in a car.  Some of us, by which I mean this one of us, even
> volunteer to pay the "drunk fee" a coupld of times as well as ridiculous
> tips, even the cab driver insists we don't because, well, anxiety and motion
> sickness are hard on a cab.  Ugh!  Nice cabbies every time, but that's their
> business and it was my pup, so I didn't take a pass on helping with the
> cleanup expense even when they tried to insist.  We will not talk about the
> period of chronic diarrhea some breeds with builds like my poodle are prone
> to if their organs grow too fast for their skeletons.  You don't *know*
> that's what's going on, and you spend a lot on the vet to make sure it's not
> serious.  Not to mention cleanup costs and effort.  Yuck!
>
> Puppy chow, puppy supplements, vet consultations, consultations with
> nutritionists....  A second harness because your pup outgrew her training
> harness.  A few collars, leashes the puppy chewed, other things the puppy
> chewed....  Tums for the human acid stomach caused by the extreme stress of
> not doing in the puppy...  /smile/
>
> Clickers, training treats, more clickers, other training supplies....
>
> Transportation to and from more advanced training venues to expose the dog
> then introduce working concepts, then work that environment.
>
> And on.  And on.
>
> Nobody paid for this but me.  Nor paid for my time.  No volunteers to raise
> my puppy until a paid professional could take over until somebody paid my
> airfare to and from, along with my room and board for 4 weeks so I could
> bring her home as a trained dog with a good set of handling skills somebody
> was paid to teach me.
>
> Nobody taught to give my dog a bath without getting shampoo in her eyes.  I
> just did that because there was no one to show me.  I was nervous about the
> possibilities, but we seem to have figured it out with no damage to the
> poodle's eyes or anything else.  Nobody worked out her fedding schedule and
> needs and told me how to put food and water out for her.  Well, as a ranch
> girl, I didn't need that.  Had I gone to a guide dog program for a dog,
> though, I'm pretty sure someone would have taught me exactly how to do all
> of that, whether I needed it or not.  Sigh.
>
> This isn't something I thought I would ever feel compelled to bring up on
> this list or elsewhere, but will someone, for pete's sake, just once
> demonstrate that nobody *gave* us owner-trainers our dogs?  Nobody *paid*
> for us to come get them, or to teach us how to use them or anything else.
> Honestly, the lowest cost of producing a guide dog by a program recently was
> $60,000.  Per dog!  Last I checked, the two guide dog programs I would
> consider applying to should the need arise for me spend much, much more.
> That's what it would cost them (aka their donors) to provide me with a
> freshly trained green dog.
>
> I would, I assure you, start training the dog the second I got home to bring
> it up to the skill level Mitzi had at that age.  She had the same lack of
> maturity then this imaginary program-trained dog would, but she had some
> pretty advanced skills, and has learned more.  In other words -- and I
> mention my two top-list schools because of many aspects of their quality of
> training and professionalism -- would not be up to snuff by the standard of
> my owner-trained pup at that age.
>
> So now I'm supposed to go through a bunch of extra hoops, spend a bunch of
> extra time and spend a bunch of extra money to prove that my dog is as
> legitimate a guide dog as those so many in this group were *given*?  On the
> theory, which I have to say I absolutely do not get, that this will prevent
> people who had their dogs *given* to them from having access issues in the
> future at a place where I've no doubt never been?
>
> Don't get me wrong.  I think it is just gum dandy that there are so many
> programs to choose from that will freely provide a gum dandy guide dog to
> any qualified person who chooses one of that programs guide dogs as a
> mobility option.  From the donors to the puppy raisers to the underpaid
> trainers who do it because they love it to everyone else involved, it just
> the most amazingly fantastic thing.  It really, really is.  I love it that
> there are people just going about in the world who make such an incredible
> resource available to folks they will probably never meet just because they
> want to.  Wow!  Huh?  Choosing to take advantage of that gift and make the
> most of it honors those people while improving the life experience of the
> handler.  Win win.
>
> It's just as legitimate a choice to take the gift of a guide dog from a
> training program as it is to provide that resource for yourself.  Llike I
> did.  /evil grin/  Wonder who has the program dog I left available because I
> changed course and decided to train Mitzi.  I only meant her for a pet and
> was going to get a "real" guide dog from a program in what would have been
> the past couple of years, unless Mitzi "turned out to have the right stuff."
> Boy, did she!  So someone somewhere had a shorter wait time and has the dog
> I would have gotten if I hadn't owner trained.  I know it's at least 2 with
> Julie, whom no one will question is qualified for a program dog.  How many
> for Rox by now?  She's no longer out based on multiple disabilities, I
> think, but still choses the do-it-yourself option.  Haven't heard from Ann
> lately, but her Panda is worth 3 guide dogs right there because mini-horses
> live so much longer.  Am I missing anybody?  Anybody want to grab a calendar
> and draw up some charts and graphs to see if we can guess whose dog here an
> owner-trainer doesn't have instead?
>
> Oh, I was getting on my horse about several themes impacting owner trainers
> in general and forgot to whose message I was ranting...  Hi, Rox!  /grin/
>
> Still, I keep getting a feeling of people wanting to get together to do
> something about requiring owner-trainers to be required to have a valid i.d.
> in order to keep frauds from impinging their access rights....  I've been
> through a number of rounds of philosophical discussions on the subject of
> how to prove a service dog is legit, and I've been really happy and proud
> that NAGDU has officially come out against the notion of certification for
> owner-trainers.
>
> Since somebody did (before I fell even more behind writing this monstrosity)
> mention the problem of readily available harnesses:::  Are you going out of
> business as we speak for the safety of all of us?  Gosh, I sure hope not!  I
> just now got my shiny new purple Laveau style harness to supplement my
> fire-engine red sports harness from On-the-Go, and I'm just getting started
> on my list of interchangeable harnesses.  I could make one my ownself if I
> really wanted to, but you guys are just so much better at it!  /grin/
>
> Shutting up now.  Maybe.
>
>
>
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of The Pawpower Pack
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:05 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] owner trained dogs
>
> Jordan,
> Do you know how many program dogs have lunged at, growled at, or
> otherwise posed a threat to my guide?  Several.  If I am forced to
> undergo some kind of "certification" then I will do my level best to
> make sure that every assistance dog, program or owner trained does as
> well.
>
>
> Rox and the Herbal HenchHounds:
> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
> "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm
> not sure about the universe."-Albert Einstein
> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
> pawpower4me at gmail.com
> AIM: Brissysgirl
>
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-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16