[nagdu] responsible handling and ownership

Fri Dec 10 07:02:09 UTC 2010

Thanks, Peggy.  Good information!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Peggy Shald
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:00 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] responsible handling and ownership

I was going to stay out of this because I'm new to this list but I can't 
keep quiet anymore.  I am currently using my fourth Seeing Eye dog and just 
got off the phone with an employee of The Seeing Eye.  Here's what would 
happen, at least in principle.  If they get a call about neglect or abuse of

a dog, from the general public, it may be ignored or they may call you about

this call.  Any of us who are guide dog users know that sometimes a leash 
correction or having the dog in harness or making them lay on the floor of a

bus, could be seen as abuse by the general public.  But if they keep getting

calls, or the calls come from a source close to the person, then an 
instructor would be sent out to meet with the dog handler to see what the 
problem is.  If there truly is abuse or neglect seen, Seeing Eye cannot 
remove the dog.  What they will do is contact the local law enforcement, 
Animal Control ... local police, whoever is responsible for the treatment of

animals wherever that person lives.  They will then work with law 
enforcement to get the dog removed from this person's care.  I hope this has

helped.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Margo and Arrow
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 7:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] responsible handling and ownership

I think we need someone from The Seeing Eye to be on this list or to answer
these questions especially regarding local animal control officers.  We seem
to go around and around about this but we don't ask the people who've been
giving ownership and using local animal control people.

I'LL SEE WHAT i CAN DO ABOUT THAT.

Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] responsible handling and ownership

> Marion,
>
> I'd beg to differ that local animal control authorities who would have the
> ability to remove a dog if owned by the handler know enough to do so. They
> may, but local laws may also not give them enough leaway to do so for 
> these
> types of infractions.
>
> I've found anecdotally and through several interactions within GDF, that
> animal control staff shy away from service animal issues even when they do
> rise to the level of legal cruelty statutes. Somehow service animals are
> sacred and the animal control folks don't feel they have the experience to
> judge cruelty or neglect. You and I both know they could do so, but this 
> is
> what I hear most often. "Why doesn't the school who trained them take care
> of it?"
>
> I was involved at the school level with one case where the dog did need to
> be removed but the offenses didn't meet the legal definition of cruelty 
> yet.
> In that state the dog had to be left outside with no shelter, food or 
> water
> for 24 hours or more, not receive appropriate vaccines or vet care, have
> open wounds not being cared for or have witnesses to beating or other
> physical injury to count as something for which they could or would take a
> dog. The dog was grossly overweight, not being worked or taken to a vet, 
> but
> not ill per say. Others cared for the dog and wanted to adopt it but the
> person would not relinquish ownership to allow this. It was a tough case 
> as
> drug and alcohol abuse was involved. The issue thought was that all these
> factors weren't enough to straight out reclaim the dog. The animal control
> people were sympathetic to our position that the dog needed to be 
> reclaimed
> and said that if we could get an order from a judge, they could do it. 
> This
> can be done and is one way to reclaim a dog. I dropped out of the process 
> at
> that point but I believe that's what ended up happening. This was an 
> extreme
> case though, but not quite extreme enough apparently to stand on its own.
>
> On the other hand, does anyone remember the gentleman in Las Angeles back 
> in
> the early '90's whose dog was taken away by animal control because the 
> local
> animal control officer was an animal rights activist and felt his several
> leash corrections were excessive and cruel. The school did not back him in
> that case and since he did not own the dog, it was sent to the school 
> where
> it lingered in the kennels for months while the case went through the 
> legal
> system. I believe the man finally went to another guide dog school, but it
> was quite the nightmare at the time as more and more "humane officers" 
> with
> this point of view were being hired in that area.
>
> I do agree about the contract violation though in my last scenario.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:51 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] responsible handling and ownership
>
> Jenine,
>    In the first two scenarios, whether the individual owns the dog or not,
> I would contact the animal services office that has legal jurisdiction 
> over
> such matters. They are competent to objectively assess the situation. A
> training program with a vested interest in the dog cannot do so with the
> same objectivity. In the third scenario, it is my non-expert opinion that
> the applicant, in signing the application, affirms that the information is
> true and correct to the best of their knowledge. If they lie on the
> application, all other agreements, including ownership agreements are most
> likely null and void. The training program, under these circumstances, 
> would
>
> be fully within their legal right to repossess the dog. We do have some
> legal eagles on this list and would be interested to know their expert
> opinion!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:36 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] responsible handling and ownership
>
>
>> OK, let me take off my guide dog school staff hat before asking these
>> questions of all of you.
>>
>> I too believe ownership is a very important principle and did encourage
>> the
>> GDF board to adopt it in the mid '90's. That said, I'd like to ask what
>> you
>> would do in the following scenarios.
>>
>> 1. You encounter someone, either on a regular basis or just now and then,
>> whose dog growls repeatedly at other dogs. The handler doesn't seem to do
>> much to stop the practice and even states that he/she likes it because
>> he/she lives in a bad area and it keeps people away. The dog has growled
>> and
>> lunged at your guide several times. What do you do? Should the handler
>> keep
>> such a dog? If the person owns the dog and the school cannot convince
>> him/her to retire it, what should happen?
>>
>> 2. You notice at convention, and I'm not going to go into how you'd 
>> notice
>> this, but you do, that a number of dogs are moderately to severely
>> overweight. The handlers are good people who are generally good at 
>> working
>> their dogs. What role should the schools have, either those who retain
>> ownership or those who grant it to the handler, in dogs' overall health?
>>
>> 3. A school has graduated someone who, it was later learned, lied on his
>> application about having been to and been denied by or not completed
>> training at other schools due to various issues. He is granted ownership
>> of
>> his dog. A number of complaints are filed over their working time about
>> cruelty issues and health concerns when the dog appears severely under
>> weight. The person is defensive when the school calls to let him know
>> about
>> the complaints. The school decides not to accept him for another dog. He
>> wants you, or your organization, to stand behind his right to have a dog
>> from that school. Do you do it? What do you base your decision on?
>>
>> These are just some of the scenarios I've seen in my 2 years on staff at
>> GDF
>> and 5 years on their board, not to mention all my time with GDUI. I've
>> been
>> on both sides of each one in one way or another and there are no right
>> answers, just things to consider and discuss.
>>
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
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