[nagdu] Hawaii

Fri Dec 10 07:40:34 UTC 2010

I can't argue with that,  I'm looking at things and there has to be a way to minimse the chance that someone will pass off a pet as a service animal.  I had this very thing occur recently at a place I frequent,  and I've never seen September get that distracted.  What's worse is that I had an extra large mocha in my right hand that was really hot in my right hand and had to somehow get my dog's attention without being able to do a two handed correction.  I think I ended up kicking or kneeing her, whixh I don't like doing at all.
Jordan

"Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:

>Jordan,
>
>Presenting proof of disability is something I have no problem with,
>since it
>just comes from doctor or eye doctor as part of regular exams.  That's
>me,
>though, and I know others are leery of having to do so, which I get, so
>I'm
>not sure I would be in favor of a public policy along those lines...  I
>just
>don't have enough information to judge what some of the ill effects
>might
>be.  Slippery slope and all that.
>
>Of course, presenting proof of blindness doesn't really need a piece of
>paper.  /lol/  It can be pretty obvious even to a casual observer if
>they
>take time to look, even with people with really good, really smoth
>adaptive
>skills.  I guess you could fake being a well-adapted blind person if
>you
>really wanted to...  Dunno.  It takes all sorts, so maybe there a
>people who
>do that just to get something they shouldn't on the basis of being
>blind.
>Or at least I've heard of it, although in my experience I'm not seeing
>what
>would be worth all the extra hassle and effort.  /grin/ 
>
>
>
>
>Tami Smith-Kinney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Jordan Gallacher
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:37 PM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>I've changed from what I was thinking origionally.  The thing that
>could
>work, since those of us who either don't want to or don't have time to
>train
>our own dog, go to a school and have to present proof of disability, 
>well,
>if those who owner train had to present proof of disability and get a
>harness made that indicates that the animal is a service animal along
>with
>getting an I.D. card with proof of disability, that may work.  Then it
>would
>be quite a bit harder for someone to take a pet into a business
>especially
>if the law was changed to reflect the above.  Basically, it would
>require
>that somewhere on the harness it indicated clearly that the dog is a
>service
>dog and not a pet.  
>Jordan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:21 AM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>Julie,
>
>My thing is that I think it would be just dandy to crack down on the
>frauds
>when they're caught and fine them to within an inch of their lives or
>throw
>them in jail, stuff like that.  Can't remember right now what penalties
>are
>in the law, but I'm thinking there are some.
>
>That way, they're cracking down on the people who are breaking the law
>instead of cracking down on those who are.
>
>Kinda over simplistic, I know, but I get irritable over new rules to
>make up
>for the fact the existing rules aren't enforced, so people break
>them...  it
>just seems silly and annoying.
>
>I feel a lot that way about access issues, too.  If the law is there
>but it
>takes a zillion years in court to have it enforced, then I guess that
>tells
>me why I just need to plan to have to deal with stupid access issues
>from
>someone who knows the law and just doesn't want to follow it.  Sigh.
>
>Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but I seem to notice in articles
>about
>issues in other countries, the fines are steep and are levied right
>quick by
>the relevant authorities.  This doesn't seem to be the case so much
>here...
>I've never had to call in the authorities over an access issue (yet),
>but
>when I get a whiff that one might be coming up, I really wonder if
>calling
>them in will do anything to improve my situation.  Depends on the cop,
>I
>guess.  I'm not that eager to find out how our local police do when
>there's
>a line-in-the-sand confrontation.  I just wish I could rest assured
>about
>the matter, just in case.  /smile/
>
>Tami Smith-Kinney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Julie J
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:04 AM
>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>Jordan,
>
>Okay, how is this going to work exactly?
>
>I owner train my guides. Not self train.  the dog doesn't train itself.
> I'm
>
>interested to know how certification could work.
>
>How I work my dogs is probably different from the way the dogs from a 
>program work.  What about someone who has some useable vision and uses
>their
>
>dog as a low vision aid?  Who is going to certify me and/or my dog? 
>How is 
>that going to not violate my civil rights?  Who is going to pay for
>this 
>certification?  How does this certification prove that in two months or
>
>under different circumstances my dog is going to behave?  What criteria
>are 
>going to be used in this certification?  Where is this harness going to
>come
>
>from?  Who is going to pay for it?  What if it doesn't fit my needs?
>
>I'm all for wedding out the fraudulent service dog handlers and/or ill 
>behaved service dogs, but I cannot figure out how this could work while
>
>respecting everyone's civil rights.
>
>Julie
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
>> This is where the ADA needs to be changed.  All someone can ask is is
>that
>
>> a
>> service animal.  Well, there really should be a requirement that even
>self
>> trained service animals are licensed with an official i.d. card, such
>as
>> something that states that it is a service animal. And two, if it is
>a 
>> self
>> trained animal, you should need to have the dog pass an examination, 
>> working
>> wise, and then issued a harness that says something like certified
>service
>> animal.  And also, the ADA should be changed to allow someone to ask
>for
>> documentation.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>> Of Jenine Stanley
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Thanks much Julie.
>>
>> I think we would all like to simply travel to anywhere in the world 
>> without
>> restrictions but reality doesn't always permit that.
>>
>> The reason there are in fact such requirements as submission of titer
>
>> tests
>> and a health certificate is that the vaccine has not been 100% proven
>to
>> prevent Rabies. In the opinion of the Hawaiian government, this is
>not
>> sufficient to insure the safety of the state. Although federal law 
>> regarding
>> access rights and other civil rights does trump state law in most
>cases,
>> when it comes to public health, things get messy.
>>
>> The other issue rearing its ugly head is fraud. We all know Julie and
>her
>> dog and that she is a competent owner-trainer. What about the guy who
>buys
>
>> a
>> harness on line, and there are lots of places one can do just that,
>or a
>> service dog vest or patches, and calls his well behaved family pet
>his
>> service dog, just so it can go to Hawaii with him on vacation. During
>that
>> vacation, the dog is allowed to run on the beach and maybe even
>around the
>> time share property freely as a pet, because after all, what do pets
>do?
>>
>> This scenario did actually play out. I got a phone call at 11:00pm
>one 
>> night
>> from someone in the Hawaii Quarantine office. Someone had come
>through the
>> airport with a dog claiming it was a guide dog, but the airline knew 
>> nothing
>> about it, allowed the person on the plane, big no-no to start, and
>then
>> didn't notify the quarantine office about the person's arrival. The
>dog 
>> was
>> not a guide and was never tracked down. The airline admitted they
>screwed 
>> up
>> in not asking any questions, but did assure the quarantine office
>that the
>> person wasn't blind. How they knew this is a mystery to me, but let's
>just
>> say the Hawaiian government was not happy.
>>
>> The reason I got this call was that they were trying to figure out if
>the
>> guide dog schools or GDUI kept a registry of people and could they
>check
>> names against it. I said that each school had a list of its active
>> graduates, but they'd have to call each one to find this out. Let's
>just 
>> say
>> that time was of the essence and they were not in the mood to deal
>with
>> this. It happened shortly after the settlement went into place so I 
>> suspect
>> someone read all the PR articles and thought, ehy, let me try this.
>>
>> Though I'd love to have a way for people to get into Hawaii with the
>least
>> amount of paperwork, some is going to be necessary. I think local 
>> licensing
>> as an assistance dog will work in terms of proof of identity but I'll
>need
>> to check that one out. Local licensing is about the only means
>someone who
>> owner trains has of proof of identity anyway if he or she wants to
>travel 
>> to
>> another country that has such a quarantine or other ID requirements.
>>
>> I suspect that as budgets tighten around the country, the less
>paperwork
>> required and the less staff time required to achieve anything will
>win 
>> out.
>> So, you never know what or how the requirements will be changed.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:13 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Jordan and Dan,
>>
>> I have pretty well stayed out of the Hawaii debate this time around. 
>> We've
>> talked about it in the past and I've been free with my opinion.  So I
>
>> guess
>> I'll throw caution to the wind and share my thoughts. *smile*
>>
>> I agree with the two of you.  It isn't fair that people with guide
>dogs 
>> have
>>
>> to go through so many extra steps to travel to Hawaii.  furthermore
>as an
>> owner trainer, I am unsure that it is even possible for me to travel
>to
>> Hawaii.  I am very much in favor of improving ease of travel to
>Hawaii.
>>
>> but I'm also torn because Hawaii is rabies free.  I can understand
>how
>> devastating it would be to introduce rabies to the islands.  However
>I 
>> would
>>
>> think that proof of the vaccine or proof of immunity through a titer
>test
>> would be sufficient.  not sure how to accomplish that without some
>sort of
>> extra paperwork requirement.
>>
>> I would also like to acknowledge the great work Of Jenine Stanly and
>GDUI
>> for working diligently to improve the situation.  I don't think it's
>fair 
>> to
>>
>> expect massive social change overnight, but Jenine made an incredible
>leap
>> forward from where things were previously in Hawaii.  I totally
>completely
>> agree with her when she talked about getting as much as they could in
>the
>> settlement and working on the rest later.   "It is better to do
>something
>> imperfectly than nothing perfectly." that's a quote I read yesterday,
>
>> sorry
>> I can't remember whose quote it is.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Dan.   You seem to be one of the few on this group who see
>things
>>> the
>>> same way I do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Dan Weiner
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:15 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> What is of concern to me, Dan, anyway, is that we have to show any
>>> paperwork, have international health certificates, blood tests, and
>so 
>>> on,
>>> for a state of the USA in order to be accompanied by our guide dogs.
>>> This is something I've only had to do when I travel to other
>countries. 
>>> If
>>
>>> I
>>> had to do this every time I traveled to another state here, I'd be
>forced
>>> not to bring my dog with me often and I'm a safer traveler with a
>dog.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it may never be resolved, but that's my opinion and what
>I at
>>> least find objectionable.
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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