[nagdu] Hawaii

Fri Dec 10 17:09:07 UTC 2010

It wasn't that way at all when I was there.  Off leash animals weren't seen.
Most places have leash laws these days, and at least when I am at home and
have trouble with a particular dog and its owner who doesn't keep it on
leash among other things, the law puts its fist down.  In other words, they
don't want to be called out again to deal with that situation or the owner
will go to jail and might lose the dog.  You have to remember one thing.
The business is responsible for what happens on its property, and that's
something they should be thinking about.  The best thing I can say to do
with the laws being the way they currently are is to get to know managers
and owners if possible of businesses you frequent.  That definiltey can be a
help.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:40 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii

Jordan,

When I was looking into guide dog programs back in the day, I did a Juno
walk in which Juno insisted on sniffing so that I could demonstrate a
two-handed leash correction.

The first image that popped into my head was being in just that situation.
Dog in one hand, hot latte in the other...  /lol/  I burst out with my
concerns about that scenario, and discovered the tester did not like being
questioned.  She's one of those people who knows all and needs to because
blind people know nothing.  Sigh.

Portland prides itself on being very dog-friendly, and people just bring
their dogs everywhere with them.  Used to be in that culture, well-trained,
perfectly mannered off-leash pet dogs could be met on the sidewalk, at
street fairs and farmers' markets, nobody thought anything about it, any
more than they did on-leash pets, who were also well behaved and all.  So
we've gotten plenty of opportunities to train for pet dog distractions.
Honestly, if we haven't seen a dog in a store for awhile, Mitzi does get
distracted by it being there out of place.  She can pass three dogs on the
way into Home Depot without twitching a hair, but the minute one of them
comes in the door, she's all about letting me know that that just ain't
right.  Unless she's short on prior run time, in which case she decides this
must be the playground she's been wanting to get to.  /lol/  She does little
yips and starts bouncing in harness, which doesn't hurt anyone and makes
everyone laugh, even, but to me it is mortifying!  Mitzi!  Manners!  Well,
she's grown out of need a lot of reminding to get back to work, so that's
nice.  There is nothing like having your guide dog showing worse etiquette
than the pet dog that's not technically supposed to come in the store.

Then again, Home Depot has been a good place to review dog distraction
etiquette indoors.  /smile/

There's been a problem here with frauds taking their untrained beasts into
grocery stores and the like and causing problems because the dogs aren't
always that clean, and they drool all over the merchandise and stuff while
the owners don't do a thing about it.  So they've started cracking down and
asking the two questions more often to try to weed out the bad seeds.  When
I'm in my usual stomping grounds, everybody knows Mitzi (not sure they
notice I'm there), so they know she's a service dog and that I'm blind, so
no problem.  When I go outside my usual haunts, though, I just answer the
questions and maybe offer more than they asked for.  You know, I'll smile
and say, "I'm blind," because I think that helps them out and it's not like
that is a state secrect or anything.  I may also do some discreet
demonstrating of Mitzi's training and obedience, something simple that
hardly disrupts the conversation, but I think that helps them, too.  Which
helps me because I can move along to whatever else I was doing.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jordan Gallacher
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:41 PM
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii

I can't argue with that,  I'm looking at things and there has to be a way to
minimse the chance that someone will pass off a pet as a service animal.  I
had this very thing occur recently at a place I frequent,  and I've never
seen September get that distracted.  What's worse is that I had an extra
large mocha in my right hand that was really hot in my right hand and had to
somehow get my dog's attention without being able to do a two handed
correction.  I think I ended up kicking or kneeing her, whixh I don't like
doing at all.
Jordan

"Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:

>Jordan,
>
>Presenting proof of disability is something I have no problem with,
>since it
>just comes from doctor or eye doctor as part of regular exams.  That's
>me,
>though, and I know others are leery of having to do so, which I get, so
>I'm
>not sure I would be in favor of a public policy along those lines...  I
>just
>don't have enough information to judge what some of the ill effects
>might
>be.  Slippery slope and all that.
>
>Of course, presenting proof of blindness doesn't really need a piece of
>paper.  /lol/  It can be pretty obvious even to a casual observer if
>they
>take time to look, even with people with really good, really smoth
>adaptive
>skills.  I guess you could fake being a well-adapted blind person if
>you
>really wanted to...  Dunno.  It takes all sorts, so maybe there a
>people who
>do that just to get something they shouldn't on the basis of being
>blind.
>Or at least I've heard of it, although in my experience I'm not seeing
>what
>would be worth all the extra hassle and effort.  /grin/ 
>
>
>
>
>Tami Smith-Kinney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Jordan Gallacher
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:37 PM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>I've changed from what I was thinking origionally.  The thing that
>could
>work, since those of us who either don't want to or don't have time to
>train
>our own dog, go to a school and have to present proof of disability, 
>well,
>if those who owner train had to present proof of disability and get a
>harness made that indicates that the animal is a service animal along
>with
>getting an I.D. card with proof of disability, that may work.  Then it
>would
>be quite a bit harder for someone to take a pet into a business
>especially
>if the law was changed to reflect the above.  Basically, it would
>require
>that somewhere on the harness it indicated clearly that the dog is a
>service
>dog and not a pet.  
>Jordan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:21 AM
>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>Julie,
>
>My thing is that I think it would be just dandy to crack down on the
>frauds
>when they're caught and fine them to within an inch of their lives or
>throw
>them in jail, stuff like that.  Can't remember right now what penalties
>are
>in the law, but I'm thinking there are some.
>
>That way, they're cracking down on the people who are breaking the law
>instead of cracking down on those who are.
>
>Kinda over simplistic, I know, but I get irritable over new rules to
>make up
>for the fact the existing rules aren't enforced, so people break
>them...  it
>just seems silly and annoying.
>
>I feel a lot that way about access issues, too.  If the law is there
>but it
>takes a zillion years in court to have it enforced, then I guess that
>tells
>me why I just need to plan to have to deal with stupid access issues
>from
>someone who knows the law and just doesn't want to follow it.  Sigh.
>
>Maybe my thinking is out of whack, but I seem to notice in articles
>about
>issues in other countries, the fines are steep and are levied right
>quick by
>the relevant authorities.  This doesn't seem to be the case so much
>here...
>I've never had to call in the authorities over an access issue (yet),
>but
>when I get a whiff that one might be coming up, I really wonder if
>calling
>them in will do anything to improve my situation.  Depends on the cop,
>I
>guess.  I'm not that eager to find out how our local police do when
>there's
>a line-in-the-sand confrontation.  I just wish I could rest assured
>about
>the matter, just in case.  /smile/
>
>Tami Smith-Kinney
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>Of Julie J
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:04 AM
>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>Jordan,
>
>Okay, how is this going to work exactly?
>
>I owner train my guides. Not self train.  the dog doesn't train itself.
> I'm
>
>interested to know how certification could work.
>
>How I work my dogs is probably different from the way the dogs from a 
>program work.  What about someone who has some useable vision and uses
>their
>
>dog as a low vision aid?  Who is going to certify me and/or my dog? 
>How is 
>that going to not violate my civil rights?  Who is going to pay for
>this 
>certification?  How does this certification prove that in two months or
>
>under different circumstances my dog is going to behave?  What criteria
>are 
>going to be used in this certification?  Where is this harness going to
>come
>
>from?  Who is going to pay for it?  What if it doesn't fit my needs?
>
>I'm all for wedding out the fraudulent service dog handlers and/or ill 
>behaved service dogs, but I cannot figure out how this could work while
>
>respecting everyone's civil rights.
>
>Julie
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
>> This is where the ADA needs to be changed.  All someone can ask is is
>that
>
>> a
>> service animal.  Well, there really should be a requirement that even
>self
>> trained service animals are licensed with an official i.d. card, such
>as
>> something that states that it is a service animal. And two, if it is
>a 
>> self
>> trained animal, you should need to have the dog pass an examination, 
>> working
>> wise, and then issued a harness that says something like certified
>service
>> animal.  And also, the ADA should be changed to allow someone to ask
>for
>> documentation.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>> Of Jenine Stanley
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Thanks much Julie.
>>
>> I think we would all like to simply travel to anywhere in the world 
>> without
>> restrictions but reality doesn't always permit that.
>>
>> The reason there are in fact such requirements as submission of titer
>
>> tests
>> and a health certificate is that the vaccine has not been 100% proven
>to
>> prevent Rabies. In the opinion of the Hawaiian government, this is
>not
>> sufficient to insure the safety of the state. Although federal law 
>> regarding
>> access rights and other civil rights does trump state law in most
>cases,
>> when it comes to public health, things get messy.
>>
>> The other issue rearing its ugly head is fraud. We all know Julie and
>her
>> dog and that she is a competent owner-trainer. What about the guy who
>buys
>
>> a
>> harness on line, and there are lots of places one can do just that,
>or a
>> service dog vest or patches, and calls his well behaved family pet
>his
>> service dog, just so it can go to Hawaii with him on vacation. During
>that
>> vacation, the dog is allowed to run on the beach and maybe even
>around the
>> time share property freely as a pet, because after all, what do pets
>do?
>>
>> This scenario did actually play out. I got a phone call at 11:00pm
>one 
>> night
>> from someone in the Hawaii Quarantine office. Someone had come
>through the
>> airport with a dog claiming it was a guide dog, but the airline knew 
>> nothing
>> about it, allowed the person on the plane, big no-no to start, and
>then
>> didn't notify the quarantine office about the person's arrival. The
>dog 
>> was
>> not a guide and was never tracked down. The airline admitted they
>screwed 
>> up
>> in not asking any questions, but did assure the quarantine office
>that the
>> person wasn't blind. How they knew this is a mystery to me, but let's
>just
>> say the Hawaiian government was not happy.
>>
>> The reason I got this call was that they were trying to figure out if
>the
>> guide dog schools or GDUI kept a registry of people and could they
>check
>> names against it. I said that each school had a list of its active
>> graduates, but they'd have to call each one to find this out. Let's
>just 
>> say
>> that time was of the essence and they were not in the mood to deal
>with
>> this. It happened shortly after the settlement went into place so I 
>> suspect
>> someone read all the PR articles and thought, ehy, let me try this.
>>
>> Though I'd love to have a way for people to get into Hawaii with the
>least
>> amount of paperwork, some is going to be necessary. I think local 
>> licensing
>> as an assistance dog will work in terms of proof of identity but I'll
>need
>> to check that one out. Local licensing is about the only means
>someone who
>> owner trains has of proof of identity anyway if he or she wants to
>travel 
>> to
>> another country that has such a quarantine or other ID requirements.
>>
>> I suspect that as budgets tighten around the country, the less
>paperwork
>> required and the less staff time required to achieve anything will
>win 
>> out.
>> So, you never know what or how the requirements will be changed.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:13 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Jordan and Dan,
>>
>> I have pretty well stayed out of the Hawaii debate this time around. 
>> We've
>> talked about it in the past and I've been free with my opinion.  So I
>
>> guess
>> I'll throw caution to the wind and share my thoughts. *smile*
>>
>> I agree with the two of you.  It isn't fair that people with guide
>dogs 
>> have
>>
>> to go through so many extra steps to travel to Hawaii.  furthermore
>as an
>> owner trainer, I am unsure that it is even possible for me to travel
>to
>> Hawaii.  I am very much in favor of improving ease of travel to
>Hawaii.
>>
>> but I'm also torn because Hawaii is rabies free.  I can understand
>how
>> devastating it would be to introduce rabies to the islands.  However
>I 
>> would
>>
>> think that proof of the vaccine or proof of immunity through a titer
>test
>> would be sufficient.  not sure how to accomplish that without some
>sort of
>> extra paperwork requirement.
>>
>> I would also like to acknowledge the great work Of Jenine Stanly and
>GDUI
>> for working diligently to improve the situation.  I don't think it's
>fair 
>> to
>>
>> expect massive social change overnight, but Jenine made an incredible
>leap
>> forward from where things were previously in Hawaii.  I totally
>completely
>> agree with her when she talked about getting as much as they could in
>the
>> settlement and working on the rest later.   "It is better to do
>something
>> imperfectly than nothing perfectly." that's a quote I read yesterday,
>
>> sorry
>> I can't remember whose quote it is.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Dan.   You seem to be one of the few on this group who see
>things
>>> the
>>> same way I do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Dan Weiner
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:15 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> What is of concern to me, Dan, anyway, is that we have to show any
>>> paperwork, have international health certificates, blood tests, and
>so 
>>> on,
>>> for a state of the USA in order to be accompanied by our guide dogs.
>>> This is something I've only had to do when I travel to other
>countries. 
>>> If
>>
>>> I
>>> had to do this every time I traveled to another state here, I'd be
>forced
>>> not to bring my dog with me often and I'm a safer traveler with a
>dog.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it may never be resolved, but that's my opinion and what
>I at
>>> least find objectionable.
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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