[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog

Tue Dec 14 19:18:17 UTC 2010

Gary.
I don't appreciate you telling me my question is silly.
And I'm not asking about feelings, yours or anybody else's.
If schools where ownership is not granted can repossess a dog, and can have a say in medical decisions then it follows that if we train a behavior the school is not comfortable with, we'd be breaking the contract.
I'm curious to know what the legal answer is on this. Going back to an earlier thread, if you teach off-leash recall because "it helps you" the school could say that you are only encouraging your dog to be offleash.
Likewise, where does it end. You may teach off-leash recall, I may teach my dog to attack, because well, that skill may come in handy sometime.
So I'm curious to know what Jenine or Marian or someone who might know the legal answer would have to say.
Your feelings are fine, but it wasn't what I am asking about.

From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of GARY STEEVES
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 2:07 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog

Hello:

This is silly. Of course we can continue to train our dogs no matter who has ownership of them. My school retains ownership but they encourage us to "patten" our dogs to our needs once we return hom. For example, I've taught Bogart to find the polls that the push button cross walk lights are on since our city has lots of these. I also taught him to find our bus stop polls and/or shelters as well as garbages by bus stops. (the garbage being one of the most needed commands.).  I keep trying to think of new things to train him to do to keep his poodle brain learning. Honestly, how we work with the dog is going to change slightly  from our school training too. For example, at school the always told me to say the dogs name and then the command. However, what has happened is that I ofetn say "ok" beofer any command and I think the okay gets Bogarts attention so he is listening. Obviously they wouldn't have told me to do this but it works for us because bogart has learned something about me.

The school's job is to give us the tools to begin to be dog trainers so we can make the dog the best working partner in our environment as possible. If we feel there are things the dog needs to learn to do why don't we try to train them. Certainly I get feedback from my school's trainers but so far they have only told me to do what I was already doing.
That's how I feel anyway.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 10:56 am
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>

> I assume I can, but why should I? If the schools know there is a
> problem, why can't they teach the solution?
> And, can we legally teach a dog we don't own to do something
> that it wasn't trained to do at the school? This wouldn't apply
> to Seeing Eye grads, but would it apply to GDB or Leader or some
> other school where the grad doesn't own the dog?
> Anybody want to answer?
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:43 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost
> Guide Dog
>
>
> Why can't you teach off leash. That is a longer term teachingthe
> way I
> understand it. I always start doing it in my room when I am
> getting a dog as
> a part of my obedience training; or if not very soon after I
> return home.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)"
> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the
> National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
>
>
> Thing is, if Seeing Eye (and I'm calling them out because Cindy
> did) knows
> that dogs will escape, why don't they teach off-leash recall?
> Not trying to school bash, and I'd have way more understanding
> if the cause
> and effect hadn't been figured out, but if the schools know that
> certainconditions will make a dog escape, the next logical step
> is to teach
> off-leash recall.
> And to thicken this a bit, if we don't own our dogs, can we
> legally add
> training without violating our contract? It's like software, if it's
> freeware or shareware, I can do whatever I want with it. If I
> buy it, I'm
> really only paying for the ability to use the software not to
> customize it.
> So, the schools don't get a pass from me.
> Plus, while it's easy to say " keep hold of the dog" you can't
> do that every
> single second of every single day. Add other humans to the mix
> and it gets
> even harder.
> I could also argue that it isn't my job to teach off-leash
> recall. If I get
> a dog froma school, it should have that already built-in. Just
> like if I buy
> Microsoft Office, I shouldn't have to code my own word processing
> ackage.  -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf
> Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:52 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
>
> Well, I say, almost any dog will run free if it thinks it can.
> And once a
> long time ago we had a tip from TSE that said that once a dog
> discovers it
> can go out a door, it will do so with regularity. I don't think
> we can blame
> the school. Our vigilance is required here, but now and then
> something like
> that happens.
>
> Doug, I wondered, too, that the folks across the street didn't
> have a clue
> to whom that dog belonged. Once I gave my dog to a woman who
> moved to
> Arizona. The dog slipped out of her house. She searched and had the
> neighborhood search. Meanwhile, someone saw on the tag that the
> dog still
> had our address in Lawrence, KS on it, so she called outvet.
> Guess it was
> the vet's number because it was the rabies tag. They called me
> with the
> woman's number and I called her. She said she had found the dog
> wanderingthe streets. Couldn't believe altogether that this was
> true, so I called the
> number of the woman in Arizona to whom the dog had been given
> and said I had
> some information she might like to have if she would return my
> call. I
> really think she felt terrible, toldme all that was going on
> with the dog
> and swore she had hunted for her and that workmen were doing
> work in the
> house and had left the door opened. The dog had ben at her feet,
> she said,
> and was suddenly gon. Well, I believe hr because stuff happens.
> I had her
> for 6 or so years, so I doubt the school could have forseen she
> would bolt
> like that. Can't say she ever had here.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
>
>
> For the sake of continuity, I have left all the replies etc
> below my
> observations.
>
> Let's not place total blame on schools for providing such and
> such a dog;
> what ever happened to owner responsibility?  Indeed,
> mistakes and accidents
> certainly do happen.  I've experienced two or three escapes
> over 35 years
> and frankly, they were my own fault for:
>
> 1   not training my dogs to come off leash.  Four
> out of my five dogs have
> all been trained to do so, starting with my second after his
> first great
> escape,  Fortunately, he had his tags and was found about 6
> blocks away,
> apparently having taken one of several routes we often walked
> together.  A
> cab company with whom I had an account picked up the fair,
> brought him back,
> and charged just as though he were a human passenger.  But
> then, what else
> would you expect from a dog named Iggy--YIKES!!!  Anyone
> experienced in dog
> training can help establish this behaviour, there is nothing
> magical or
> related to blindness in such training.
>
> 2.  Since I owned my own home; having a dog loose in the
> yard means having a
> fence, clear and simple with any entrance gate being spring-
> loaded so that
> said gate cannot remain open.  Further, it is extremely
> rare that I ever
> allowed any of my dogs to be out in the yard
> unaccompanied.  Jingling items
> can help maintain awareness as to where the dog is if
> necessary.  If one
> cannot built a fence, either do not let the dog have free run,
> or provide a
> tying device of appropriate length.
>
> 3.  Ensuring that my dog is properly tagged at all
> times.  Further, all my
> dogs have the chip imbedded in them (I've often thought of
> getting one for
> myself in case of accident etc.)
>
> It's sad but true that there are far too many dullards living
> around each
> other who are completely and totally oblivious to each
> other.  Amazing that
> a neighbour across the street had never seen this fellow with
> his dog--that
> one makes me real suspicious
>
> Doug: All tails are happy that end well.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
>
>
> > Tell me about it, I used to have tat problem with Carter, it
> can be a
> > nightmare.
> >
> > Dan W.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
> bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Peter Donahue
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:50 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
> >
> > Hello Ginger and everyone,
> >
> >    This is exactly why I was quite angry about
> receiving a dog who had a
> > tendency to escape. Tim was my first dog from SE and had to be
> chased down
> > many times when he was younger. This is something that should
> have been
> > noted by his puppy raiser and corrected prior to him entering guide
> > training. I'm pleased to say that like my second dog Ogden
> Johnny is not
> > an
> > escape artist. All the tags, microchips, Pit Bull round-ups,
> and service
> > dog
> > protection legislation in the world won't help if your dog has
> the urge to
> > run away and nothing is done to discourage it.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Home Safe! Was Looking for Lost Guide Dog
> >
> >
> > FYI. Good reminder for us all to replace tags ASAP!
> > Missing St. Paul guide dog found by neighbor, reunited with owner
> > Neighbor finds the runaway retriever
> > By Rhoda Fukushima and Tad Vezner
> > Pioneer Press
> > Updated: 12/13/2010 11:53:13 PM CST
> >
> >
> > Service dog Spalding, a 22-month-old male golden retriever,
> > disappeared Sunday in St. Paul s Merriam Park neighborhood.
> > (Courtesy to Pioneer Press: McDevitt family)A blind St. Paul man
> > who lost his guide dog in the freezing cold Sunday - and spent
> > that day and the next wrought with worry - was relieved to
> > discover late Monday that the dog had spent the night in a warm
> > kitchen across the street.
> >
> > About 1:30 p.m. Sunday, Justin McDevitt went to shovel snow in
> > back of his house in the 1700 block of Marshall Avenue in the
> > Merriam Park neighborhood. He believes Spalding, a 22-month-old
> > male golden retriever, followed him outside: When McDevitt went
> > inside an hour later, Spalding was not there.
> >
> > McDevitt called for him, but the dog did not respond.
> >
> > McDevitt immediately contacted the St. Paul location of the
> > Animal Humane Society and the St. Paul Animal Control Center. His
> > wife went outside to scour the neighborhood and alert neighbors.
> > Numerous media outlets picked up the story about the dog, who is
> > McDevitt's fourth and had only been with him and his family a
> > matter of weeks.
> >
> > A resident about a block down saw one of those news reports
> > Monday evening, and noticed the dog looked suspiciously like the
> > one that a next-door neighbor had found at 2:30 p.m. Sunday,
> > running around outside.
> >
> > "He was just all by himself, and there were people at the other
> > end of the block, so I thought he was with them," said neighbor
> > Connie Murphy. "First I told him to go home, and he just looked
> > at me. Then I called and he came running and just sat down. He
> > was just the most awesome dog in the whole world."
> >
> > Murphy, who has two dogs
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ---------------
> >
> > Advertisement
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ---------------
> > herself, walked the dog around the neighborhood on a leash,
> > asking those shoveling their walks if they knew who his owner
> > might be.
> > Everyone shook their head.
> >
> > "It was cold and getting colder. I took him in to get warmed up,"
> > Murphy said. First she kept the dog in a kennel, but let him out
> > when she saw how well behaved he was. Spalding slept the night on
> > her kitchen floor.
> >
> > He was wearing a black and red nylon collar but no tags. Spalding
> > normally wears tags, but they broke off last week when McDevitt
> > mistakenly hooked the leash into the tag ring.
> >
> > On Monday evening, Murphy heard from a neighbor that the dog
> > might be McDevitt's, who lives across the street and two doors
> > down. She turned on the television, saw a news report and called
> > McDevitt's wife.
> >
> > "I think I have your dog," she said.
> >
> > "I'll be right over," the woman replied.
> >
> > "She was - zoom - right there!" Murphy said.
> >
> > Within minutes Spalding and McDevitt were reunited.
> >
> > "He was real happy. I was real happy," McDevitt said Monday
> > evening.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf Of David Andrews
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:08 AM
> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org; mn-abs at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [nagdu] Looking for Lost Guide Dog
> >
> >
> > From KARE-11 TV:
> >
> >
> > ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Guide Dogs for the Blind is asking for your
> > assistance in locating a lost dog named "Spalding."
> >
> > The 2-year-old male yellow Labrador Retriever/Golden Retriever
> > cross breed has been specially trained to assist his blind
> > partner in safe mobility. The two have been traveling as a team
> > since October.
> >
> > Spalding has been missing from his home since 1:30 p.m. Sunday.
> > He was last seen on the 1700 block of Marshall Avenue (between
> > Fairview and Snelling) in St. Paul.
> >
> > Spalding has tattoos in both ears with his ID number. If you have
> > any information about this lost Guide Dog, please contact
> > Graduate Services at Guide Dogs for the Blind by calling
> > toll-free: 800-295-4050.
> >
> > Established in 1942, Guide Dogs for the Blind provides enhanced
> > mobility and quality of life to people who are blind through
> > lifetime partnerships with Guide Dogs. This non-profit
> > organization, headquartered in San Rafael, Calif. is the largest
> > school of its kind and has produced more than 11,000 partnerships
> > across the United States and Canada. Services are offered
> > entirely free of charge.
> >
> > (Copyright 2010 KARE. All rights reserved)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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