[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

Wed Dec 22 14:58:57 UTC 2010

Jenine,

thank you!  all of my 3 owner trained guides I have had from puppies.  the 
second two were older puppies, around 8-9 months.  Remembering back to those 
puppy days I have no clue how I lived through it, let alone managed to come 
out the other side with a guide dog.  It seems like two totally different 
beings.  Monty used to jump straight up and down every time he saw another 
dog.  There were so many times I wanted to crawl in a hole and hide from the 
utter embarrassment of his behavior.  Now he will walk by a barking dog 
behind a fence with only a glance.  He used to eat my feather pillows ,  But 
now I'm able to leave my bedroom door open without fear of having to pick 
down feathers out of the curtains.  He used to jump on counters and steal 
food.  I currently have cookies on the counter that he could reach with 
minimal effort.  He's sleeping in the living room and I have no fear of the 
cookies.  I could even go outside and I know he wouldn't bother the cookies. 
If someone else raised him as a puppy and told me all these horrendous 
things he did, I'm not sure I would believe them.

I don't really have an opinion on the contact with puppy raisers issue, but 
I can say for certain that attributing adult behaviors to puppy antics is 
hit or miss at best.

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

> Rebecca,
>
> I think you are correct to an extent, especially about changing policies
> from within, but one thing to remember is that puppies change a great deal
> over the time they are with their raisers, just like your own child. Some
> things they do are predictable, some behaviors can be shaped, stopped or
> yes, in some cases encouraged.
>
> Would you want someone comparing your daughter at age 5 to her adult self
> and asking why you let her do X, Y or Z?
>
> I hear a lot of people saying that behaviors they observe in their dogs as
> adults are directly related to something the puppy raiser did or did not 
> do,
> usually in the negative.
>
> I've had several dogs whose raisers said they were surprised the dog made 
> it
> to be a guide, only because they remembered the dog's teenage years as it
> were and based their opinion not on any specific bad behavior but the 
> dog's
> general attitude. I've also had one dog who never did certain things as a
> puppy that he definitely did as an adult, and he developed those 
> behaviors,
> like a kid going off to college, once he got into the kennel setting.
> Luckily, they weren't horrific behaviors, but the raiser was shocked to 
> hear
> he did such things, even in his kennel profiles. Yep, he was quite the 
> frat
> boy, partying with the kennel mates, opening run doors and crate doors and
> egging on other dogs. I called him the Bart Simpson of guide dogs for a
> reason. :)
>
> Yes, some bad habits, as well as some good ones, can start and magnify in
> the puppy home but remember, not everything does. n
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:58 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
> Marsha,
> I am sorry this happened to you. Truly I am.
> I do want to say that "find a different school" isn't the solution to
> everything. It's like saying "If you don't like x about your husband, then
> find a different husband".
> Yes, that may be the answer, but why can't people try to change the policy
> from within?
> An argument for having contact with raisers is that they live with and
> observe the dog in the same conditions you do. The trainers do not live 
> with
> the dogs, and I do think that impacts what they observe and how they 
> observe
> it. It's like living with a person and noticing things that you wouldn't
> notice if you didn't live with them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:36 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
> Ginger, Thank you for this explaination. As an SE grad, I have no problem
> with the way the puppy raising contact is done now. I completely see why 
> its
> done the way it is. And I know that if I wanted to send a letter to Emma's
> raiser, then I can do so. I would rather stay private. I mean don't get me
> wrong, how they raised Emma was wonderful, but neither do I need anything
> else from them. With my previous pup, from GDB. I had a bad raiser
> experience. After only 4 years of working Heather, I was forced to retire
> her. And because I did so, the raiser, got very upset at me. She was never
> meant to be a guide, and I have no clue why GDB put her through the
> training. She was a wonderful pup, just not meant to do guide work. The
> raiser blamed me for her ability not to work. And believe me if I could 
> have
> done something to make that dog work, then I would.
>
> So as a SE grad, I know why they did it this way. If you don't like it, 
> then
> maybe those of you who have real issues with the policy should find 
> another
> school.
>
> Just my two cents for whatever its worth,
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ginger Kutsch
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:07 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
> All,
>
> There is a question about The Seeing Eye's policy regarding
> raiser contact on the consumer satisfaction survey that graduates
> are invited to participate in after they have been home with
> their dogs for nine months. When I worked on the consumer
> satisfaction committee, the majority of respondents,
> approximately 80%, were satisfied with the current puppy raiser
> contact policy.
>
> As a graduate of The Seeing Eye, I have no strong feeling one way
> or another about puppy raiser contact. I've written a thank you
> note to my puppy raisers for each of my three dogs and have never
> received a response. Whether I am able to have direct
> communication with my puppy raiser or not has no bearing on my
> dog's ability to guide me safely and effectively. Therefore, it
> is not part of my decision making process when I consider a
> school.
>
> There are, however,  several graduates who attend The Seeing Eye
> because there is *no contact. Whether we are all "adults" or not,
> people are generally brought up to feel obligated in some way to
> those people who offer us assistance, give us gifts, etc. How
> many times have you done something simply because you feel
> obligated?
>
> The fact is that, whether we call ourselves "consumers" or not,
> when we attend a guide dog school and receive a dog, we are
> accepting charity. Those people who raise puppies for a guide dog
> school are performing a charitable act. If you consider the
> definition of charity for a moment, it may give you more insight
> on the philosophy of The Seeing Eye. Charity is defined as 1),
> generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless;
> And 2), something given to a person or persons in need.
>
> Early on, The Seeing Eye created policies that supported its
> belief that blind people deserved respect and dignity. Now I know
> there are some on this list that dislike the word dignity, but
> when applied correctly, one realizes that The Seeing Eye's tag
> line  is not saying that dogs provide independence and dignity;
> but rather  it's saying that the organization firmly believes
> that independence and dignity is a right that everyone deserves.
>
> That said, many of the policies that The Seeing Eye upholds
> support this belief.
>
> 1. There is a charge for the dog. Seeing Eye does not advertise
> that a blind person can come get a dog for free. This smacks of
> "charity".  The fee hardly covers the true cost of the dog and
> may only be symbolic, but it enables the organization to promote
> its belief that blind people are not looking for a hand-out but
> rather a hand-up.
>
> 2. The Seeing Eye does not accept funding, or ask its graduates
> to seek funding, for any one individual's  specific training
> needs. I think Buddy's post adequately explained the reason for
> this policy.
>
> 3. The Seeing Eye does not facilitate puppy raiser contact. This
> policy is in keeping with the organization's belief that blind
> people who receive a dog from The Seeing Eye are not charity
> cases but rather individuals who are looking to enhance their
> lives. This policy switches the focus of puppy raising from
> raising a dog for any one blind individual to raising the dog for
> an organization that provides dogs for the blind. This makes the
> organization obligated to the puppy raisers, rather than placing
> that burden on the individual blind person.
>
> Years ago when graduates expressed a desire to be able to
> personally thank their puppy raisers if they so chose, The Seeing
> Eye responded and created a system so that graduates might do so
> while still preserving anonymity. Since the majority of Seeing
> Eye graduates are satisfied with the current policy on puppy
> raiser contact, it's highly unlikely that the organization will
> seek to change it at this point.
>
> Anyway, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, just
> offering my two cents for what its worth!
>
> Ginger,
>
>
>
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