[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

Wed Dec 22 23:26:41 UTC 2010

Hi Janine,
Interesting about what the GDF does nowadays. I got my first two dogs there 
and I had to retire the first one because of relieving issues.  She wouldn't 
want to do Number 2 when I took her to go.  So, she held it and held it as 
long as she could and that resulted in her dumping like a horse as wwe 
walked along.  People would yell at me for it but it was already trailed 
along the walkway and couldn't see it to pick it up.  So, I couldn't ever 
stop this behavior in that dog and had tp retire her.

My question to you is:  How do you teach the dog to touch you when you ask 
it to come to you?  Landon comes but not touch me or is a few feet from me. 
I tap my leg and he does come closer.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

> Lynne,
>
> Good questions. Also, dogs go through several fear periods as puppies so 
> if
> you asked your dog's raiser if the dog was ever afraid of X, Y or Z, the
> answer night be yes, depending on where that experience fell in its
> development.
>
>
> As for leash relieving, I can only speak for GDF but our puppy manual and
> all Area Coordinators teach raisers to relieve the dogs on leash, on
> concrete and if that's not possible, on a variety of surfaces other than
> grass. We know that some raisers are more diligent about this than others
> but we saw a huge improvement in leash relieving issues once this was 
> really
> stressed to raisers.
>
> I'm excited because on January 9 I'll be meeting with the puppy group that
> was part of Swap's upbringing, and staying with his puppy walker in
> Lakeland, Florida. She's raised I believe around 15 pups now and the group
> is quite active. It will be fun for them to see a working dog and fun for 
> us
> to see all those puppies in various stages of development.
>
> I agree that it's important for puppy groups and individuals to see blind
> people and how we actually work with our dogs.
>
> GDF is also stressing that dogs touch handlers when returning on the come
> command. This is probably pretty standard and one of those no-brainer
> things, but wow, what a difference once it was really stressed in the 
> puppy
> homes.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lyn Gwizdak
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
> Thanks, Janine.
>
> I'm wondering if the things people blame on puppy raisers reflect on the
> fact that most people really don't know exactly what it is the raisers do
> with the puppies to make them guide dog training ready.
>
> Yeah, folks know that the raisers house train and leash train the pups.
> they bring them out into all sorts of human envirnment to get them used to
> our world of humans that the adult guide will work in.  It is theory and 
> not
>
> actual concrete things we hear about what is actually done with the pups 
> to
> get them ready for us. For example, what are the raisers teaching the pups
> in regards to leash relieving?  Most people take their dogs for a walk
> allowing the dog to pee or poop whereever they choose while on that walk.
> Blind people with guide dogs have a spot and stand there with the dog 
> being
> allowed to choose the elimiation spots only within the radius of the 
> leash.
> I have had dogs who have a difficult time with relieving on leash in one
> place - particularly to do Number 2.  I wonder if that dog was walked on
> leash in the manner that most pet dogs do.
>
> I have heard about things because I see the puppy raisers at our annual
> event here. I also have good friends who have raised a puppy.  Likewise, 
> the
>
> raisers don't really get to see many blind guide dog users and what we do
> and how we do it.
>
> So, there is a need for the raisers and users to get together to share our
> stories in other ways if our schools don't have the raisers meet their 
> dog's
>
> recipient as many schools do.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
>
>> Rebecca,
>>
>> I think you are correct to an extent, especially about changing policies
>> from within, but one thing to remember is that puppies change a great 
>> deal
>> over the time they are with their raisers, just like your own child. Some
>> things they do are predictable, some behaviors can be shaped, stopped or
>> yes, in some cases encouraged.
>>
>> Would you want someone comparing your daughter at age 5 to her adult self
>> and asking why you let her do X, Y or Z?
>>
>> I hear a lot of people saying that behaviors they observe in their dogs 
>> as
>> adults are directly related to something the puppy raiser did or did not
>> do,
>> usually in the negative.
>>
>> I've had several dogs whose raisers said they were surprised the dog made
>> it
>> to be a guide, only because they remembered the dog's teenage years as it
>> were and based their opinion not on any specific bad behavior but the
>> dog's
>> general attitude. I've also had one dog who never did certain things as a
>> puppy that he definitely did as an adult, and he developed those
>> behaviors,
>> like a kid going off to college, once he got into the kennel setting.
>> Luckily, they weren't horrific behaviors, but the raiser was shocked to
>> hear
>> he did such things, even in his kennel profiles. Yep, he was quite the
>> frat
>> boy, partying with the kennel mates, opening run doors and crate doors 
>> and
>> egging on other dogs. I called him the Bart Simpson of guide dogs for a
>> reason. :)
>>
>> Yes, some bad habits, as well as some good ones, can start and magnify in
>> the puppy home but remember, not everything does. n
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>> Marsha,
>> I am sorry this happened to you. Truly I am.
>> I do want to say that "find a different school" isn't the solution to
>> everything. It's like saying "If you don't like x about your husband, 
>> then
>> find a different husband".
>> Yes, that may be the answer, but why can't people try to change the 
>> policy
>> from within?
>> An argument for having contact with raisers is that they live with and
>> observe the dog in the same conditions you do. The trainers do not live
>> with
>> the dogs, and I do think that impacts what they observe and how they
>> observe
>> it. It's like living with a person and noticing things that you wouldn't
>> notice if you didn't live with them.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marsha Drenth
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:36 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>> Ginger, Thank you for this explaination. As an SE grad, I have no problem
>> with the way the puppy raising contact is done now. I completely see why
>> its
>> done the way it is. And I know that if I wanted to send a letter to 
>> Emma's
>> raiser, then I can do so. I would rather stay private. I mean don't get 
>> me
>> wrong, how they raised Emma was wonderful, but neither do I need anything
>> else from them. With my previous pup, from GDB. I had a bad raiser
>> experience. After only 4 years of working Heather, I was forced to retire
>> her. And because I did so, the raiser, got very upset at me. She was 
>> never
>> meant to be a guide, and I have no clue why GDB put her through the
>> training. She was a wonderful pup, just not meant to do guide work. The
>> raiser blamed me for her ability not to work. And believe me if I could
>> have
>> done something to make that dog work, then I would.
>>
>> So as a SE grad, I know why they did it this way. If you don't like it,
>> then
>> maybe those of you who have real issues with the policy should find
>> another
>> school.
>>
>> Just my two cents for whatever its worth,
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Ginger Kutsch
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:07 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>> All,
>>
>> There is a question about The Seeing Eye's policy regarding
>> raiser contact on the consumer satisfaction survey that graduates
>> are invited to participate in after they have been home with
>> their dogs for nine months. When I worked on the consumer
>> satisfaction committee, the majority of respondents,
>> approximately 80%, were satisfied with the current puppy raiser
>> contact policy.
>>
>> As a graduate of The Seeing Eye, I have no strong feeling one way
>> or another about puppy raiser contact. I've written a thank you
>> note to my puppy raisers for each of my three dogs and have never
>> received a response. Whether I am able to have direct
>> communication with my puppy raiser or not has no bearing on my
>> dog's ability to guide me safely and effectively. Therefore, it
>> is not part of my decision making process when I consider a
>> school.
>>
>> There are, however,  several graduates who attend The Seeing Eye
>> because there is *no contact. Whether we are all "adults" or not,
>> people are generally brought up to feel obligated in some way to
>> those people who offer us assistance, give us gifts, etc. How
>> many times have you done something simply because you feel
>> obligated?
>>
>> The fact is that, whether we call ourselves "consumers" or not,
>> when we attend a guide dog school and receive a dog, we are
>> accepting charity. Those people who raise puppies for a guide dog
>> school are performing a charitable act. If you consider the
>> definition of charity for a moment, it may give you more insight
>> on the philosophy of The Seeing Eye. Charity is defined as 1),
>> generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless;
>> And 2), something given to a person or persons in need.
>>
>> Early on, The Seeing Eye created policies that supported its
>> belief that blind people deserved respect and dignity. Now I know
>> there are some on this list that dislike the word dignity, but
>> when applied correctly, one realizes that The Seeing Eye's tag
>> line  is not saying that dogs provide independence and dignity;
>> but rather  it's saying that the organization firmly believes
>> that independence and dignity is a right that everyone deserves.
>>
>> That said, many of the policies that The Seeing Eye upholds
>> support this belief.
>>
>> 1. There is a charge for the dog. Seeing Eye does not advertise
>> that a blind person can come get a dog for free. This smacks of
>> "charity".  The fee hardly covers the true cost of the dog and
>> may only be symbolic, but it enables the organization to promote
>> its belief that blind people are not looking for a hand-out but
>> rather a hand-up.
>>
>> 2. The Seeing Eye does not accept funding, or ask its graduates
>> to seek funding, for any one individual's  specific training
>> needs. I think Buddy's post adequately explained the reason for
>> this policy.
>>
>> 3. The Seeing Eye does not facilitate puppy raiser contact. This
>> policy is in keeping with the organization's belief that blind
>> people who receive a dog from The Seeing Eye are not charity
>> cases but rather individuals who are looking to enhance their
>> lives. This policy switches the focus of puppy raising from
>> raising a dog for any one blind individual to raising the dog for
>> an organization that provides dogs for the blind. This makes the
>> organization obligated to the puppy raisers, rather than placing
>> that burden on the individual blind person.
>>
>> Years ago when graduates expressed a desire to be able to
>> personally thank their puppy raisers if they so chose, The Seeing
>> Eye responded and created a system so that graduates might do so
>> while still preserving anonymity. Since the majority of Seeing
>> Eye graduates are satisfied with the current policy on puppy
>> raiser contact, it's highly unlikely that the organization will
>> seek to change it at this point.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, just
>> offering my two cents for what its worth!
>>
>> Ginger,
>>
>>
>>
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