[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Linda Gwizdak
linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Wed Feb 3 00:07:05 UTC 2010
Tami,
I have a friend who had a Dobie from Pilot in the late '80s. It was a large
female red Dobie. She was a really nice dog and quite mellow. From what I
saw with her, she was a good guide and she had a nice temperment. She was
kinda aloof but friendly to her friends.
Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> Rebecca,
>
> I've only ever talked to one person who did that without also having other
> disabilities that made attending a program undoable. Acctually, he is
> also
> the only person I've ever met with a dobie guide. /smile/
>
> I was with a couple of other newbie blinds, and we molested him and his
> date
> with questions galore about guide dogs and guide dog schools. He was a
> long-time guide dog user, so he gave us more information that we could
> have
> dreamed of about using a guide dog, and how to approach guide dog
> programs,
> what was good with the ones he knew of and what to beware of. He really
> stressed his opinion that, as blind consumers, we needed to work with any
> school we applied to but not let them push us around. /smile/
>
> Which is why he had chosen to go to a small guide dog school for the dobie
> we were all observing with such delight. He had to pay his own way there
> and back, but I don't remember if he said whether or not he paid for the
> training, as well.
>
> He told us that he liked the smaller class size and greater individual
> time
> with the trainer, as well as the greater flexibility in breed choice. He
> also expressed a great deal of dissatisfaction with the attitudes of some
> schools toward their blind consumers.
>
> At that point, it was a truly educational and enlightening meeting for my
> companions and I. I can't say that it influenced my decision to
> owner-train
> or even which schools to apply to before life happened and it became a
> better choice for me to roll my own guide. It did give me a lot to think
> about, though! /smile/
>
> To this day, I have no idea who this man is. We probably exchanged names,
> but you know how it is with chance meetings. I loved watching the dog,
> though. It was standing under a street light, and I had much better
> vision
> than I do now. In fact, I was still wearing my glasses back then. Huh.
> I
> especially enjoyed watching the dog's interaction with the handler and
> vice
> versa, and observing they were well matched in attitude as well as in
> size.
> Their signals back and forth were subtle, but one could easily see that
> that
> was a *whole* lotta dog! What I especially remember noticing is that the
> dog was very actively alert with its head and body as well as with its
> eyes.
> However, he (I think the dog was male) pivoted around his perfectly
> stationary front end so as not to telegraph his movements through the
> harness.
>
> Of all the guide dogs I have met, Mitzi reminds me most of that one in
> many
> ways, even though I've never seen it again. She is a very busy girl and
> wants to take in everything around her. The difference is that as far as
> I
> know, she hasn't discovered the trick of turning to watch in another
> direction without letting me knw. Or has she? I'm better at keeping
> track
> of her nonvisually while I'm chatting or in the checkout line, but every
> now
> and then I still look down for her black silhouette against the floor and
> discover it's not exactly where I thought it was. Oops! She's not
> looking
> for trouble at these times anymore, at least. Just looking around while I
> do my thing. I guess I just naively believe she's right where she should
> be
> because I don't feel her movement through the harness or through the Halti
> even when I have my hand almost on the thing while I'm holding the leash.
>
> Huh. Sneaky little twit. /grin/ Now that I'm actually thinking about
> it,
> she also seems to have learned to slip the leash out from under my shoe
> when
> I'm standing on it. Maybe she's more like Mr. Busy Doberman than I
> thought.
> /lol/
>
> Anyway, that's all I know. Why others make the decision, I can't speak
> for.
> I can't think of any circumstances off hand that would lead me in the
> direction of paying a professional trainer instead of owner-training or
> going through a program. Then again, life does happen, so one can never
> be
> sure. /grin/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC Inc)
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:27 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Julie and list,
> Why would someone choose to use a private trainer or get their dog from
> say Noah's Assistance given the high finantial cost? I can understand
> owner-training, and I can understand getting a dog froma program, but am
> unable to figure out the middle option.
> Any ideas?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 3:54 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Uh, Albert...the vast majority of guide dog users get their guides from
> programs. the vast majority of programs are free. The Seeing Eye is
> the
> only large program that charges more than a token amount, $150. As I
> understand it they will work out payment plans if that is needed.
>
> What I said is accurate, not all guide dogs are free. But I don't want
> you
> to have the impression that most blind people are unable to afford one
> because that just isn't so. the largest cost is the food and veterinary
>
> care. There are programs that will help with those costs as well.
>
> I don't see it as a harsh reality or a burden that I have chosen to foot
> the
> bill for my guide dog. If I couldn't afford it, I have other options.
> Choice is a beautiful thing.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Margo I never knew this, I just about fell out of my chair when I
> heard
>> Julie make that statement. The GDF does not, and I will continue to
> help
>> raise funds for them as long as I can given this new found
> information. In
>> one instance our fiscal independence is important, but philanthropic
> work
>> is
>> to be commended, not charity. It now makes sense, why there may be
> only
>> 10,000 guide users nationally, as I have been advised, if there are
> costs
>> involved which would stress our monthly budgets. Remarkable.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Margo and Arrow
>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:44 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> those of us who go to The Seeing eye do pay a fee for our dogs--it's a
>
>> small
>>
>> fee. I believe we're the only school which requires payment of any
> kind
>> but
>>
>> could be wrong.
>>
>> margo and Arrow
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has
>
>>>been
>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog. I am new
> to
>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
> guides
>>> free
>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is
> to
>>> be,
>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual school,
> but by
>>> a
>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill
> set
>>> sufficient to create a certification program which would better
> ensure
>>> well
>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
>>> impacted
>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as
> a
>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
> promising
>>> for
>>> all. I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do
> not
>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and
> others
>>> is
>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
> sufficient
>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I
> see
>>> how
>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but
> as
>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the
> ADA
>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>>
>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out
> of
>>> me.
>>>
>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
> brought up
>>> are my issues as well.
>>>
>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification,
> but
>>> rather the implementation of that certification. As of yet I have
> not
>>> seen
>>>
>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased
> and
>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers. If someone
> can
>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification will
> not
>>> cost
>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up. Until then I'm a "no
>>> certification" gal.
>>>
>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes
> from
>>> the
>>>
>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
> "help"
>>> the
>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity. I
> am
>>> not
>>>
>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am
> old
>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were. Agencies
> offering
>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do
> not
>>> have a good track record. Really I like the current laws and would
>>> rather
>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
> ones
>>> that
>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for
> blind
>>> people.
>>>
>>> JMO, a'course
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.
> Well
>>>> why
>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
> individual
>>>> schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users an
>>>> professionals from the field? Anything different would most
> certainly
>>>> appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or is
> not a
>>>> certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but
> that
>>>> the
>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
>>>> trained
>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a
> state
>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to
> be
>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler. Is
> that
>>>> not
>>>> proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide
>>>> prior
>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
> position? I
>>>> am
>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
>>>> trained
>>>> in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA are
>>>> afforded?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
>>>> herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
>>>>
>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
> training
>>>> for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the
> guide
>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
>>>> bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>
>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>
>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>>>> "certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I
> think
>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do not
>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
> you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
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