[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Wed Feb 3 05:29:39 UTC 2010


Ah.  I hadn't thought of it that way.  Good points!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:23 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

I think any of the reasons why someone would choose to owner train would 
also apply to hiring a professional trainer...
wanting very specific trained behaviors
wanting behaviors that aren't taught at a traditional program
not being able to leave job/family/business for extended training
training for additional disabilities
choice of a breed not offered at a traditional program
use of a training method not used at a traditional program
the ability to customize the training
ownership
choice of foods and alternative health care
and the list goes on.

I think if you are choosing between owner training and hiring a private 
trainer it really boils down to whether you have more time or more money. 
More time means that owner training is an option and more money means that 
hiring someone else's time is an option.

As for Noah's Assistance Dogs and the $1500 that they charge...I couldn't 
begin to tell you why someone would choose that option.  They do allow 
fundraising as part or all of the fee.   They are an extremely small program

and they train a lot more service dogs than guides.  From the little I know 
about service dogs $1500 is a pretty reasonable price.  I've heard a lot 
higher amounts for service dogs.   I know two people that have used Noah's 
services.  One is very happy and the other not so much.

JMHO
Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC Inc)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


> Julie and list,
> Why would someone choose to use a private trainer or get their dog from
> say Noah's Assistance given the high finantial cost? I can understand
> owner-training, and I can understand getting a dog froma program, but am
> unable to figure out the middle option.
> Any ideas?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 3:54 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Uh, Albert...the vast majority of guide dog users get their guides from
> programs.  the vast majority of programs are free.  The Seeing Eye is
> the
> only large program that charges more than a token amount, $150.  As I
> understand it they will work out payment plans if that is needed.
>
> What I said is accurate, not all guide dogs are free.  But I don't want
> you
> to have the impression that most blind people are unable to afford one
> because that just isn't so.  the largest cost is the food and veterinary
>
> care.  There are programs that will help with those costs as well.
>
> I don't see it as a harsh reality or a burden that I have chosen to foot
> the
> bill for my guide dog.  If I couldn't afford it, I have other options.
> Choice is a beautiful thing.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Margo I never knew this, I just about fell out of my chair when I
> heard
>> Julie make that statement.  The GDF does not, and I will continue to
> help
>> raise funds for them as long as I can given this new found
> information. In
>> one instance our fiscal independence is important, but philanthropic
> work
>> is
>> to be commended, not charity.  It now makes sense, why there may be
> only
>> 10,000  guide users nationally, as I have been advised, if there are
> costs
>> involved which would stress our monthly budgets.  Remarkable.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Margo and Arrow
>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:44 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> those of us who go to The Seeing eye do pay a fee for our dogs--it's a
>
>> small
>>
>> fee.  I believe we're the only school which requires payment of any
> kind
>> but
>>
>> could be wrong.
>>
>> margo and Arrow
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has
>
>>>been
>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am new
> to
>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
> guides
>>> free
>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is
> to
>>> be,
>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual school,
> but by
>>> a
>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill
> set
>>> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better
> ensure
>>> well
>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
>>> impacted
>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as
> a
>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
> promising
>>> for
>>> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do
> not
>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and
> others
>>> is
>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
> sufficient
>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I
> see
>>> how
>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but
> as
>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the
> ADA
>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>>
>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out
> of
>>> me.
>>>
>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
> brought up
>>> are my issues as well.
>>>
>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification,
> but
>>> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I have
> not
>>> seen
>>>
>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased
> and
>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If someone
> can
>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification will
> not
>>> cost
>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a "no
>>> certification" gal.
>>>
>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes
> from
>>> the
>>>
>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
> "help"
>>> the
>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity.  I
> am
>>> not
>>>
>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am
> old
>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies
> offering
>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do
> not
>>> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and would
>>> rather
>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
> ones
>>> that
>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for
> blind
>>> people.
>>>
>>> JMO, a'course
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.
> Well
>>>> why
>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
> individual
>>>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users an
>>>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most
> certainly
>>>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or is
> not a
>>>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but
> that
>>>> the
>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
>>>> trained
>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a
> state
>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to
> be
>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.  Is
> that
>>>> not
>>>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide
>>>> prior
>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
> position? I
>>>> am
>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
>>>> trained
>>>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA are
>>>> afforded?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
>>>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>>>>
>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
> training
>>>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the
> guide
>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
>>>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>
>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>
>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>>>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I
> think
>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do not
>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
> you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
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