[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
cheryl echevarria
cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 1 12:54:01 UTC 2010
Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we do not pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with our first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price. We didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
Cheryl Echevarria
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----- Original Message -----
From: Margo and Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide.
Absolutely nothing. what is this harsh reality stuff? I don't understand.
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also, thank
> you
> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are required to
> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the foundation I
> got
> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane skills.
> I
> had no idea. I also have been reading marching alone and walking together
> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book, that I am
> looking forward to reading your other suggestions. I do realize how far
> the
> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women, gays, and
> oh so many others which make up the mosaic that is our country. I also
> appreciate the advancements realized for the blind and the disabled
> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how much more
> needs to be done to ensure equality and access. I have accepted my
> calling
> to be a force to be reckoned with to further the efforts of my
> predescesors
> and be a catalyst to further that effort. I have much to learn, and have
> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from the new
> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off line we
> could
> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county and then
> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one town
> hall
> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state. I am here
> for
> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or disenfranchised
> by
> anyone or anything just because I am blind. I did not accept it as a gay
> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively and empoweringly as I
> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay rather
> then
> a gay man. I thank you and do know I value your experience and knowledge
> in this new way I navigate life. Peace.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>
> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money. The Seeing Eye
> charges $150 for your first guide from there. Noah's Assistance Dogs
> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog. Some blind people choose to
> use
> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars. I do know of
> a
>
> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts for their
> guide dogs. Owner trainers financial investments vary considerably. If
> you
>
> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands. Add in
> the
>
> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and other
> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on top of the
> cost of the dog.
>
> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting place, but
> that
>
> individuals are still being denied access. I'd like to point out that
> civil
>
> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older than the
> ADA
>
> and those groups still experience discrimination. It has only been about
> 20
>
> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in that
> time. Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>
> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything. I
> commend you for being so diligent about learning. I really think reading
> everything you possibly can from
> http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/>
> especially the older more historical documents will help you understand
> what
>
> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past. I think it
> might
>
> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the beliefs
> that
>
> we do. We understand what has been tried, what worked and what didn't.
> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now. Many of the people on
> this
>
> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire life. We
> are all still learning.
>
> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of Independence"
> it's available at the NFB site I linked above. This article helped me
> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness skills to
> living in the real world.
>
> HTH
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has
>>been
>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog. I am new to
>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide guides
>> free
>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is to
>> be,
>> must be determined independently and not by any individual school, but by
>> a
>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill set
>> sufficient to create a certification program which would better ensure
>> well
>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
>> impacted
>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as a
>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and promising
>> for
>> all. I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do not
>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and others
>> is
>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education sufficient
>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I see
>> how
>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but as
>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the ADA
>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>>
>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out of
>> me.
>>
>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have brought up
>> are my issues as well.
>>
>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification, but
>> rather the implementation of that certification. As of yet I have not
>> seen
>>
>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased and
>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers. If someone can
>> convince me that their program for implementing certification will not
>> cost
>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up. Until then I'm a "no
>> certification" gal.
>>
>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes from
>> the
>>
>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to "help"
>> the
>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity. I am
>> not
>>
>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am old
>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were. Agencies offering
>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do not
>> have a good track record. Really I like the current laws and would
>> rather
>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new ones
>> that
>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for blind
>> people.
>>
>> JMO, a'course
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch. Well
>>> why
>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by individual
>>> schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users an
>>> professionals from the field? Anything different would most certainly
>>> appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or is not a
>>> certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but that
>>> the
>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
>>> trained
>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a state
>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler. Is that
>>> not
>>> proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide
>>> prior
>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position? I
>>> am
>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
>>> trained
>>> in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA are
>>> afforded?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>>
>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
>>> herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
>>>
>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
>>> for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
>>> bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>
>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>
>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>>> "certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I think
>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do not
>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com>
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>
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