[nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

cheryl echevarria cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 1 16:52:21 UTC 2010


Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when he retires.

Cheryl Echevarria 
Independent Contractor
www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
1-866-580-5574
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Albert J Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org> 
  To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


  It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive others
  away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not expect
  to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that those
  handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told me about,
  allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply are
  loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the dog back
  if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of contributing in
  some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen fit to
  actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay for the
  privilege of getting a guide. 

  Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
  CEO/Founder
  My Blind Spot, Inc.
  90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
  New York, New York  10004
  www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
  PH: 917-553-0347
  Fax: 212-858-5759
  "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
  doing it."


  Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



  -----Original Message-----
  From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
  Of cheryl echevarria
  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
  To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

  Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we do not
  pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with our
  first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price.  We
  didn't and so that many others may not know this either.

  Cheryl Echevarria 
  Independent Contractor
  www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
  1-866-580-5574
  Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>>
  Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
  You can also find me on:
  Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
  LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Margo and Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>> 
    To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
  Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> 
    Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


    Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide. 
    Absolutely nothing.  what is this harsh reality stuff?  I don't
  understand.

    Margo and Arrow
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Albert J Rizzi"
  <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
    To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
    <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


    > Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also, thank

    > you
    > for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are required
  to
    > pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the foundation I

    > got
    > my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane skills.

    > I
    > had no idea.  I also have been reading marching alone and walking
  together
    > and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book, that I am
    > looking forward to reading your other suggestions.  I do realize how far

    > the
    > civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women, gays,
  and
    > oh so many others which make up the mosaic  that is our country. I also
    > appreciate the advancements  realized for the blind and the disabled
    > community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how much
  more
    > needs to be done to ensure equality and access.  I have accepted my 
    > calling
    > to be a force to be reckoned  with to further the efforts of my 
    > predescesors
    > and be a catalyst  to further that effort. I have much to learn, and
  have
    > lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from the new
    > perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off line we 
    > could
    > talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county and
  then
    > my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one town 
    > hall
    > at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state.  I am here 
    > for
    > the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or disenfranchised

    > by
    > anyone or anything just because  I am blind. I did not accept it as a
  gay
    > man and I plan to work my blindness as positively  and empoweringly  as
  I
    > did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay rather 
    > then
    > a gay man.  I thank you and do know I value your experience  and
  knowledge
    > in this new way I navigate  life. Peace.
    >
    > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
    > CEO/Founder
    > My Blind Spot, Inc.
    > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
    > New York, New York  10004
    > www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
    > PH: 917-553-0347
    > Fax: 212-858-5759
    > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
  is
    > doing it."
    >
    >
    > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
    > Of Julie J
    > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
    > To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
    >
    > Albert,
    >
    > Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money.  The Seeing Eye
    > charges $150 for your first guide from there.  Noah's Assistance Dogs
    > charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog.  Some blind people choose to 
    > use
    > a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars.  I do know
  of 
    > a
    >
    > couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts for
  their
    > guide dogs.  Owner trainers financial investments vary considerably.  If

    > you
    >
    > purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.  Add in

    > the
    >
    > cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and other
    > incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on top of
  the
    > cost of the dog.
    >
    > You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting place, but 
    > that
    >
    > individuals are still being denied access.  I'd like to point out that 
    > civil
    >
    > rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older than the

    > ADA
    >
    > and those groups still experience discrimination.  It has only been
  about 
    > 20
    >
    > years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in that
    > time.  Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
    >
    > You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.  I
    > commend you for  being so diligent about learning.  I really think
  reading
    > everything you possibly can from
    > http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.org/>>
    > especially the older more historical documents will help you understand 
    > what
    >
    > blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past.  I think it 
    > might
    >
    > help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the beliefs 
    > that
    >
    > we do.   We understand what has been tried, what worked and what didn't.
    > I've been legally blind for around 17 years now.  Many of the people on 
    > this
    >
    > list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire life.
  We
    > are all still learning.
    >
    > If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
  Independence"
    > it's available at the NFB site I linked above.  This article helped me
    > immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness skills
  to
    > living in the real world.
    >
    > HTH
    > Julie
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message ----- 
    > From: "Albert J Rizzi"
  <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
    > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
    > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
    >
    >
    >>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has 
    >>been
    >> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am new to
    >> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide guides
    >> free
    >> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is to 
    >> be,
    >> must be determined independently and not by any individual school, but
  by
    >> a
    >> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill
  set
    >> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better ensure
    >> well
    >> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
    >> impacted
    >> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
    >> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as a
    >> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
  promising
    >> for
    >> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do not
    >> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and
  others
    >> is
    >> a cost of those looking for the certification and education sufficient
    >> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I
  see
    >> how
    >> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but as
    >> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
    >> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the
  ADA
    >> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
    >>
    >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
    >> CEO/Founder
    >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
    >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
    >> New York, New York  10004
    >> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
    >> PH: 917-553-0347
    >> Fax: 212-858-5759
    >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who

    >> is
    >> doing it."
    >>
    >>
    >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
    >> Behalf
    >> Of Julie J
    >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
    >> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
    >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
    >>
    >> Albert,
    >>
    >> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out
  of
    >> me.
    >>
    >> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have brought
  up
    >> are my issues as well.
    >>
    >> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification,
  but
    >> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I have not
    >> seen
    >>
    >> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased
  and
    >> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If someone can
    >> convince me that their program for implementing certification will not
    >> cost
    >> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a "no
    >> certification" gal.
    >>
    >> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes
  from
    >> the
    >>
    >> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to "help"
    >> the
    >> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity.  I
  am
    >> not
    >>
    >> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am
  old
    >> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies offering
    >> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do
  not
    >> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and would 
    >> rather
    >> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new ones
    >> that
    >> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for
  blind
    >> people.
    >>
    >> JMO, a'course
    >> Julie
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> ----- Original Message ----- 
    >> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
  <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
    >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
    >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
    >> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
    >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
    >>
    >>
    >>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.
  Well
    >>> why
    >>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
  individual
    >>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users an
    >>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most certainly
    >>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or is not
  a
    >>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but
  that
    >>> the
    >>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
    >>> trained
    >>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a
  state
    >>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
    >>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
    >>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.  Is
  that
    >>> not
    >>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide
    >>> prior
    >>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position?
  I
    >>> am
    >>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
    >>> trained
    >>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA are
    >>> afforded?
    >>>
    >>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
    >>> CEO/Founder
    >>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
    >>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
    >>> New York, New York  10004
    >>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
    >>> PH: 917-553-0347
    >>> Fax: 212-858-5759
    >>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
  who
    >>> is
    >>> doing it."
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
    >>> Behalf
    >>> Of The Pawpower Pack
    >>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
    >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
    >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
    >>>
    >>> Albert,
    >>>
    >>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
    >>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
    >>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
    >>>
    >>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
    >>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
    >>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
    >>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
    >>> allowed on pubtrans.
    >>>
    >>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
    >>> training into places of public accommodation.
    >>>
    >>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
    >>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
    >>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I think
    >>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
    >>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
    >>> involved in certifying my dog.
    >>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do not
    >>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
    >>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
    >>> largely non-disabled trainers.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
    >>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
    >>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
    >>> earn it and win it in every generation."
    >>> -- Coretta Scott King
    >>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com>>
    >>>
    >>> Windows Live Only:
  Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com>>
    >>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
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  .
    >>> org
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> _______________________________________________
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  .
    >> net
    >>>
    >>
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  .
    > net
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