[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Julie J julielj at windstream.net
Sat Jan 2 01:35:59 UTC 2010


Albert,

I don't think Tami or I has ever supported the idea of  bending the law or 
expecting people to turn a blind eye.   As the moderator I am certainly not 
going to allow suggestions of criminal activity to be conducted on this 
list.  I guess I forgot to put that in the rules.  Please consider it added.

Tami has stated that she approached business owners and explained her 
situation to get their permission to enter their establishment.  I live in a 
state that has laws covering service dogs in training.  I don't know what 
the Oregon, where Tami lives, laws are in regard to service dogs in 
training. At any rate as long as she wasn't violating health codes, it is 
perfectly legal to ask permission to gain entrance into a business with any 
dog.   My coworkers often bring their pets to the courthouse where I work. 
I am going to assume that they have permission to do this. *smile*

Julie


Neither of us is breaking the law in any way by owner training our guides.

Julie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


>I am happy to hear that you have worked it out and that you are able to
> owner train your guide and do so as adeptly, although as exhaustedly as it
> sounds.  If as an owner trainer you feel that you are sufficiently 
> protected
> then cool!  What of our brothers and sisters in areas not so progressive 
> and
> accepting of bending the law or turning a blind eye as it were.  Is this a
> real concern at all? Or would as suggested by Julie enacting measures to
> consider the repeated misrepresentation  of a pet as a service animal put
> this entire dialogue to rest if these repeat offenders were charge legally
> and found to be in violation of the ADA as written?
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 2:28 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>
> I'm late, I know.  But my understanding is that this already happens with
> the major schools.  At least with guide dogs.  There are days when we go
> downtown where you can't swing a cat without hitting a guide dog in 
> training
> with a sighted trainer from GDB.  They use the same training grounds I 
> have,
> in fact.  And puppy raisers with their charges in green GDB vests are also 
> a
> common sight.  One point on which many people evaluate prospective guide 
> dog
> schools when they start applying is by what kind of training the school 
> does
> in what scenarios.  The early training goes on in simulated environments,
> too; but when the pups are ready, out they go to work in the real world!
>
> I know there are trainers out there who train guide dogs (for a hefty 
> fee!)
> privately, and I don't know how they deal with the real world part of the
> training process.  But the reputable programs definintely have that 
> covered
> already!
>
> One thing I have found as an owner trainer is that *not* having a good
> simulation environment for some task and behavior training makes things a
> bit tough, at least for a trainer of a Mitzi poodle!  We managed to work 
> it
> out using a gradual exposure method the name of which I can't think just
> now.  Not being able to see what that nose was up to was also a big
> drawback, although it only got out of bounds on its own a time or two 
> early
> on, and it did not cause a disaster.  I'm still jumpy in restaurants,
> though, just because of all the things I used to have to watch out for!
> /lol/  We did all the ground training and stuff way before we started 
> going
> into public, of course, but I also had to do a lot of exposure training on
> the fly with her to start teaching her to manage that energy and
> overstimulation.  I feel exhausted just thinking about it!  /lol/  Then
> someone would come up and tell me they've been breeding poodles for 900
> years and have never seen such a mellow poodle!  Talk about having your 
> hair
> stand on end.
>
> Anyway, whether you're a program or an owner-trainer, yes, you do have to 
> do
> a lot of socialization and exposure and real world work with your dog in
> training before you can call it a "real' guide dog or service dog.  And as
> an owner-trainer, you do have to figure out how to manage access issues 
> with
> your green pup so that everybody is happy and you don't cause problems for
> yourself or for the next person who wants to come in with a guide dog. 
> But
> we do seem to be well enough protected by the existing laws, and adding a
> federally required certification won't change that!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Albert J Rizzi
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:45 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.  Well 
> why
> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by individual
> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users an
> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most certainly
> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or is not a
> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but that 
> the
> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and 
> trained
> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a state
> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.  Is that 
> not
> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide prior
> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position? I am
> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently 
> trained
> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA are 
> afforded?
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of The Pawpower Pack
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>
> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>
> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
> allowed on pubtrans.
>
> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
> training into places of public accommodation.
>
> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I think
> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
> involved in certifying my dog.
> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do not
> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
> largely non-disabled trainers.
>
>
> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
> earn it and win it in every generation."
> -- Coretta Scott King
> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>
> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>
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