[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Julie J
julielj at windstream.net
Sat Jan 2 13:18:08 UTC 2010
Albert,
The folks at GDF didn't mislead you about paying for a guide dog. The norm
is that they are free or at a very low cost.
Noah's Assistance Dog's that charges $1500 only places maybe a half dozen
dogs per year. Of those one might be a guide. They train both guide and
service dogs there.
Very, very few guide dog handlers choose the owner trainer or private
trainer route. Every single one that I know of that chose to owner train
didn't do it because of the money. We do it because we love to, plain and
simple. I assure you that owner trainers and people who get their guides
from programs that require substantial payments are fully aware that they
could go some other place and pay nothing.
Again, choice is a beautiful thing.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> Hey buddy I think I covered this one before, but just in case, I never
> knew
> and was told that paying for a guide was not the norm and perhaps an
> opportunity for being taken advantage of. I do not disagree that a
> nominal
> fee is in order. I would think that if all schools considered this as an
> option, much more effort might be put into the diligent and dogged work
> which needs to be practiced for the first year a team is together. The
> harsh reality is that I did not know that fees were ever charged and that
> if
> they were they would be in the 10's of thousands and not at all nominal.
> The
> harsh reality is the truth as it was presented and the misleading
> information I got from counselors and other trainers in my area. I also
> have
> learned that seeing eye also charges a nominal fee and that handlers walk
> away owning their dog, as opposed to others which provide guides as
> philanthropic gifts, yet do not pass ownership of the guide onto the
> handler. That is and always has been disconcerting to me. happy and
> healthy.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Buddy Brannan
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 6:53 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Why is the paying of a fee (even a token one) for something which we
> receive
> in exchange (a guide dog, in this case) a "harsh reality"? What's harsh
> about this particular reality?
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also, thank
> you
>> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are required to
>> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the foundation I
> got
>> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane skills.
> I
>> had no idea. I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>> together
>> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book, that I am
>> looking forward to reading your other suggestions. I do realize how far
> the
>> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women, gays,
>> and
>> oh so many others which make up the mosaic that is our country. I also
>> appreciate the advancements realized for the blind and the disabled
>> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how much more
>> needs to be done to ensure equality and access. I have accepted my
> calling
>> to be a force to be reckoned with to further the efforts of my
> predescesors
>> and be a catalyst to further that effort. I have much to learn, and have
>> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from the new
>> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off line we
> could
>> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county and
>> then
>> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one town
> hall
>> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state. I am here
> for
>> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or disenfranchised
> by
>> anyone or anything just because I am blind. I did not accept it as a gay
>> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively and empoweringly as I
>> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay rather
> then
>> a gay man. I thank you and do know I value your experience and
>> knowledge
>> in this new way I navigate life. Peace.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>>
>> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money. The Seeing Eye
>> charges $150 for your first guide from there. Noah's Assistance Dogs
>> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog. Some blind people choose to
> use
>> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars. I do know
>> of
> a
>>
>> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts for
>> their
>
>> guide dogs. Owner trainers financial investments vary considerably. If
> you
>>
>> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands. Add in
> the
>>
>> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and other
>> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on top of
>> the
>
>> cost of the dog.
>>
>> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting place, but
> that
>>
>> individuals are still being denied access. I'd like to point out that
> civil
>>
>> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older than the
> ADA
>>
>> and those groups still experience discrimination. It has only been about
> 20
>>
>> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in that
>> time. Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>
>> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything. I
>> commend you for being so diligent about learning. I really think
>> reading
>
>> everything you possibly can from
>> http://www.nfb.org
>> especially the older more historical documents will help you understand
> what
>>
>> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past. I think it
> might
>>
>> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the beliefs
> that
>>
>> we do. We understand what has been tried, what worked and what didn't.
>> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now. Many of the people on
> this
>>
>> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire life.
>> We
>
>> are all still learning.
>>
>> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of Independence"
>> it's available at the NFB site I linked above. This article helped me
>> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness skills
>> to
>
>> living in the real world.
>>
>> HTH
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>> I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has
> been
>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog. I am new to
>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide guides
>>> free
>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is to
> be,
>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual school, but
>>> by
>
>>> a
>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill set
>>> sufficient to create a certification program which would better ensure
>>> well
>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
>>> impacted
>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as a
>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and promising
>>> for
>>> all. I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do not
>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and
>>> others
>
>>> is
>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education sufficient
>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I see
>>> how
>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but as
>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the
>>> ADA
>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>>
>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out of
>>> me.
>>>
>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have brought
>>> up
>>> are my issues as well.
>>>
>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification, but
>>> rather the implementation of that certification. As of yet I have not
>>> seen
>>>
>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased and
>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers. If someone can
>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification will not
>>> cost
>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up. Until then I'm a "no
>>> certification" gal.
>>>
>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes from
>>> the
>>>
>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to "help"
>>> the
>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity. I am
>>> not
>>>
>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am
>>> old
>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were. Agencies offering
>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do
>>> not
>>> have a good track record. Really I like the current laws and would
> rather
>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new ones
>>> that
>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for
>>> blind
>>> people.
>>>
>>> JMO, a'course
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.
>>>> Well
>>>> why
>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by individual
>>>> schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users an
>>>> professionals from the field? Anything different would most certainly
>>>> appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or is not a
>>>> certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but
>>>> that
>>>> the
>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
>>>> trained
>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a state
>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler. Is
>>>> that
>>>> not
>>>> proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide
>>>> prior
>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position? I
>>>> am
>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
>>>> trained
>>>> in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA are
>>>> afforded?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
>>>> herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
>>>>
>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
>>>> for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
>>>> bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>
>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>
>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>>>> "certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I think
>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do not
>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
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