[nagdu] ownership

Albert J Rizzi albert at myblindspot.org
Sat Jan 2 15:31:25 UTC 2010


Concerning the GDF's bottom line I get what you stated from all aspects,
whelping, breeding, medical attention, staffing, etc. what types of costs
are their for owner trainers?  I wrongly assumed that foundations and
schools were the only option.  This was instilled by the two schools I
interviewed with, a few end users and a number of counselors and instructors
from the commission to rehab centers.  Please help me better understand this
option in our lives.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:16 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership

Albert,
    The "cost" of a guide dog, as asserted by the schools,  is a little 
misleading. Most schools take their annual budget and divide it by the 
number of dogs placed in a year. This may be a way of helping the public 
understand how much it costs to run such a program, but the costs are not 
all dog-related, such as marketing, grounds keeping, etc. At the same time, 
since the only thing a school does is train dogs, they are part of the 
overall functioning of the corporation. Those who train their own dogs or 
have a professional trainer do this for them, will not incur some of these 
costs.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership


> That is news to me. as I understood it 3 years ago, it was not a clear
> option.  Given the costs involved in rearing a guide I would be hard 
> pressed
> to be able to buy one especially given all the new information about owner
> trainers and the cost factor. What
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>
> Albert,
>
> GDF does offer ownership.
>
> For me ownership is an absolute must.  People's views on ownership vary
> considerably.  We've discussed it here before and I'm sure it will come up
> in another 6 months again.  It is one of the topics that we all just agree
> to disagree on.
>
> We've discussed financial contributions toward the price of a guide dog 
> too.
>
> I'm still in favor.  Perhaps it's my own personal issues that make me feel
> uncomfortable  with the idea of not paying for something.  I don't know.
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when he
>> retires.
>>
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> Independent Contractor
>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>> 1-866-580-5574
>>
>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>> CST-1018299-10
>> You can also find me on:
>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Albert J Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>
>>  To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>  It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive
>> others
>>  away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not
>> expect
>>  to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that those
>>  handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told me
>> about,
>>  allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply are
>>  loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the dog
>> back
>>  if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of contributing 
>> in
>>  some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen fit
>> to
>>  actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay for
>> the
>>  privilege of getting a guide.
>>
>>  Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>  CEO/Founder
>>  My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>  90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>  New York, New York  10004
>>  www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
>>  PH: 917-553-0347
>>  Fax: 212-858-5759
>>  "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>>  doing it."
>>
>>
>>  Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>  Of cheryl echevarria
>>  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
>>  To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>  Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we do
>> not
>>  pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with 
>> our
>>  first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price.  We
>>  didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
>>
>>  Cheryl Echevarria
>>  Independent Contractor
>>
>>
>
www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>>  1-866-580-5574
>>
>>
>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>
ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
> el.com>>
>>  Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>> CST-1018299-10
>>  You can also find me on:
>>  Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>  LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>    ----- Original Message ----- 
>>    From: Margo and
>> Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>>
>>    To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>  Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>    Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
>>    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>    Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide.
>>    Absolutely nothing.  what is this harsh reality stuff?  I don't
>>  understand.
>>
>>    Margo and Arrow
>>    ----- Original Message ----- 
>>    From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>
>>
>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
>>    To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>> Users'"
>>
>>
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
> agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
>>    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>    > Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also,
>> thank
>>
>>    > you
>>    > for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are
>> required
>>  to
>>    > pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the
>> foundation I
>>
>>    > got
>>    > my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane
>> skills.
>>
>>    > I
>>    > had no idea.  I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>>  together
>>    > and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book, that 
>> I
>
>> am
>>    > looking forward to reading your other suggestions.  I do realize how
>> far
>>
>>    > the
>>    > civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women,
>> gays,
>>  and
>>    > oh so many others which make up the mosaic  that is our country. I
>> also
>>    > appreciate the advancements  realized for the blind and the disabled
>>    > community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how much
>>  more
>>    > needs to be done to ensure equality and access.  I have accepted my
>>    > calling
>>    > to be a force to be reckoned  with to further the efforts of my
>>    > predescesors
>>    > and be a catalyst  to further that effort. I have much to learn, and
>>  have
>>    > lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from the
>> new
>>    > perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off line
>> we
>>    > could
>>    > talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county 
>> and
>>  then
>>    > my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one
>> town
>>    > hall
>>    > at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state.  I am
>> here
>>    > for
>>    > the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or
>> disenfranchised
>>
>>    > by
>>    > anyone or anything just because  I am blind. I did not accept it as 
>> a
>>  gay
>>    > man and I plan to work my blindness as positively  and empoweringly
>> as
>>  I
>>    > did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay
>> rather
>>    > then
>>    > a gay man.  I thank you and do know I value your experience  and
>>  knowledge
>>    > in this new way I navigate  life. Peace.
>>    >
>>    > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>    > CEO/Founder
>>    > My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>    > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>    > New York, New York  10004
>>    >
>>
>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>    > PH: 917-553-0347
>>    > Fax: 212-858-5759
>>    > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who
>>  is
>>    > doing it."
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > -----Original Message-----
>>    > From:
>>
>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>    > Of Julie J
>>    > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>>    > To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>    >
>>    > Albert,
>>    >
>>    > Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money.  The Seeing 
>> Eye
>>    > charges $150 for your first guide from there.  Noah's Assistance 
>> Dogs
>>    > charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog.  Some blind people choose
>> to
>>    > use
>>    > a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars.  I do
>> know
>>  of
>>    > a
>>    >
>>    > couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts for
>>  their
>>    > guide dogs.  Owner trainers financial investments vary considerably.
>> If
>>
>>    > you
>>    >
>>    > purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands. 
>> Add
>
>> in
>>
>>    > the
>>    >
>>    > cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and
>> other
>>    > incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on top
>> of
>>  the
>>    > cost of the dog.
>>    >
>>    > You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting place,
>> but
>>    > that
>>    >
>>    > individuals are still being denied access.  I'd like to point out
>> that
>>    > civil
>>    >
>>    > rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older than
>> the
>>
>>    > ADA
>>    >
>>    > and those groups still experience discrimination.  It has only been
>>  about
>>    > 20
>>    >
>>    > years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in
>> that
>>    > time.  Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>    >
>>    > You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything. 
>> I
>>    > commend you for  being so diligent about learning.  I really think
>>  reading
>>    > everything you possibly can from
>>    >
>>
>
http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.or
> g/>>
>>    > especially the older more historical documents will help you
>> understand
>>    > what
>>    >
>>    > blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past.  I think
>> it
>>    > might
>>    >
>>    > help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the
>> beliefs
>>    > that
>>    >
>>    > we do.   We understand what has been tried, what worked and what
>> didn't.
>>    > I've been legally blind for around 17 years now.  Many of the people
>> on
>>    > this
>>    >
>>    > list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire
>> life.
>>  We
>>    > are all still learning.
>>    >
>>    > If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
>>  Independence"
>>    > it's available at the NFB site I linked above.  This article helped
>> me
>>    > immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness
>> skills
>>  to
>>    > living in the real world.
>>    >
>>    > HTH
>>    > Julie
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>    > From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>
>>
>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
>>    > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'"
>>    >
>>
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
> agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>    > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>>    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as
>> has
>>    >>been
>>    >> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am new
>> to
>>    >> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
>> guides
>>    >> free
>>    >> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is
>> to
>>    >> be,
>>    >> must be determined independently and not by any individual school,
>> but
>>  by
>>    >> a
>>    >> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the 
>> skill
>>  set
>>    >> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better
>> ensure
>>    >> well
>>    >> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has
>>    >> impacted
>>    >> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
>>    >> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we
>> as a
>>    >> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
>>  promising
>>    >> for
>>    >> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do
>> not
>>    >> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and
>>  others
>>    >> is
>>    >> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
>> sufficient
>>    >> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. 
>> I
>>  see
>>    >> how
>>    >> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but
>> as
>>    >> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores
>> and
>>    >> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about
>> the
>>  ADA
>>    >> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>    >>
>>    >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>    >> CEO/Founder
>>    >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>    >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>    >> New York, New York  10004
>>    >>
>>
>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>    >> PH: 917-553-0347
>>    >> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>    >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who
>>
>>    >> is
>>    >> doing it."
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> -----Original Message-----
>>    >> From:
>>
>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>    >> Behalf
>>    >> Of Julie J
>>    >> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>    >> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>    >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>    >>
>>    >> Albert,
>>    >>
>>    >> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap
>> out
>>  of
>>    >> me.
>>    >>
>>    >> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
>> brought
>>  up
>>    >> are my issues as well.
>>    >>
>>    >> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to 
>> certification,
>>  but
>>    >> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I have
>> not
>>    >> seen
>>    >>
>>    >> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, 
>> unbiased
>>  and
>>    >> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If someone
>> can
>>    >> convince me that their program for implementing certification will
>> not
>>    >> cost
>>    >> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a
>> "no
>>    >> certification" gal.
>>    >>
>>    >> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes
>>  from
>>    >> the
>>    >>
>>    >> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
>> "help"
>>    >> the
>>    >> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity.
>> I
>>  am
>>    >> not
>>    >>
>>    >> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I
>> am
>>  old
>>    >> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies
>> offering
>>    >> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services
>> do
>>  not
>>    >> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and would
>>    >> rather
>>    >> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
>> ones
>>    >> that
>>    >> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for
>>  blind
>>    >> people.
>>    >>
>>    >> JMO, a'course
>>    >> Julie
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>    >> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>
>>
>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>>
>>    >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'"
>>    >>
>>
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
> agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>    >> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>    >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.
>>  Well
>>    >>> why
>>    >>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
>>  individual
>>    >>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users 
>> an
>>    >>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most
>> certainly
>>    >>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or is
>> not
>>  a
>>    >>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified, 
>> but
>>  that
>>    >>> the
>>    >>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified
>> and
>>    >>> trained
>>    >>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a
>>  state
>>    >>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to
>> be
>>    >>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they
>> will
>>    >>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler. 
>> Is
>>  that
>>    >>> not
>>    >>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a
>> guide
>>    >>> prior
>>    >>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
>> position?
>>  I
>>    >>> am
>>    >>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be
>> sufficiently
>>    >>> trained
>>    >>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA are
>>    >>> afforded?
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>    >>> CEO/Founder
>>    >>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>    >>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>    >>> New York, New York  10004
>>    >>>
>>
>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>    >>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>    >>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>    >>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the 
>> one
>>  who
>>    >>> is
>>    >>> doing it."
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> -----Original Message-----
>>    >>> From:
>>
>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>  [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>    >>> Behalf
>>    >>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>    >>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>    >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>    >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Albert,
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
>>    >>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me 
>> know.
>>    >>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
>> training
>>    >>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the
>> guide
>>    >>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed
>> to
>>    >>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs 
>> are
>>    >>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>    >>>
>>    >>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>    >>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>    >>>
>>    >>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>>    >>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>    >>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I
>> think
>>    >>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own 
>> trainers
>>    >>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not
>> be
>>    >>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>    >>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do not
>>    >>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights 
>> of
>>    >>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>    >>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>    >>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>    >>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
>> you
>>    >>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>    >>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>    >>>
>>
>
pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.
> com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Windows Live Only:
>>
>>
>
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