[nagdu] ownership
Marion & Martin
swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Wed Jan 6 00:15:41 UTC 2010
Linda,
Florida statute makes it a second degree misdemeanor to "carry a white
cane or a white cane tipped in red in the extended position". This seems to
imply, like you state, that it is a crime to impersonate a blind person!
(smile) When I had more eyesight (around 1986), I was walking down the road
with my cane folded up and in my back pocket when a cop pulled over thinking
it was a martial arts weapon! (grin)
Fraternally yours,
MarionI once was
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
> Hi guys,
> I think the "it's illegal to own a guide dog harness" thing comes from the
> same thing about non-blind people using white canes with or without red
> tips. I don't think there is any actual law that specifically says that it
> is unlawful to own a harness or white cane. I think the law addresses
> people owning these things to masquade as a blind person. The guide
> harness and white cane have become symbols to alert people that the person
> using these are blind. We all assume that people with these things are
> blind just as we think a person in a wheelchair is disabled. These are
> identity symbols as far as I can tell.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>
>
>> OK, soap box time.
>>
>> I'm getting really sick and tired of the mystique that guide dog schools
>> seem to endow to guide dog equipment. There, in short, is none. There's
>> no magic in guide dog equipment, and there's nothing illegal about owning
>> same. * think it *is* illegal to fraudulently claim a disability to
>> sidestep access laws, but the mere owning of guide dog equipment, which
>> can be fabricated by any competent harness maker, is completely above
>> board, and to state or even imply that its ownership is somehow illegal
>> is just ridiculous.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> More or less what I remember, but what about that harness thing. I
>>> remember
>>> being led to believe that it was illegal for anyone to own a harness who
>>> was
>>> not blind or a service animal user as defined by the ADA is that true?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:29 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>> I have the ownership agreement Marion.
>>>
>>> It basically states, I own maxx but not his harness and that is the
>>> property
>>> of GDF. If in the future I decided that I cannot care for maxx and
>>> cannot
>>> find him a home, then I can bring him back to the school.
>>>
>>> I think Jeanine Stanley is on here and she should be able to go into it
>>> as
>>> well. I also get assistance with the school in the way of vet care.
>>>
>>> That is how I understand it.
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> Independent Contractor
>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>> CST-1018299-10
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Marion & Martin<mailto:swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:11 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>>
>>> Though GDF does provide ownership, there are some strings attached
>>> that
>>> I intend to discuss with them. Since I do not have the ownership
>>> agreement
>>>
>>> in front of me, I will withhold my comments concerning the details.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net<mailto:julielj at windstream.net>>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> GDF does offer ownership.
>>>>
>>>> For me ownership is an absolute must. People's views on ownership vary
>>>> considerably. We've discussed it here before and I'm sure it will come
>>> up
>>>> in another 6 months again. It is one of the topics that we all just
>>> agree
>>>> to disagree on.
>>>>
>>>> We've discussed financial contributions toward the price of a guide dog
>>>> too. I'm still in favor. Perhaps it's my own personal issues that make
>>> me
>>>> feel uncomfortable with the idea of not paying for something. I don't
>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria"
>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com<mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:52 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when he
>>>>> retires.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>
>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>
>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>> el.com>>
>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Albert J
>>> Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive
>>>>> others
>>>>> away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not
>>>>> expect
>>>>> to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that those
>>>>> handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told me
>>>>> about,
>>>>> allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply are
>>>>> loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the
>>> dog
>>>>> back
>>>>> if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of contributing
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen
>>> fit
>>>>> to
>>>>> actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay
>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>> privilege of getting a guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From:
>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>> Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we
>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>> pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with
>>>>> our
>>>>> first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price. We
>>>>> didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.
>>> com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/%3Chttp://www.echevarriatravel.com%3cht
>>> tp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>>
>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>> el.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echeva
>>> rriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservati
>>> ons at echevarriatravel.com>>>
>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Margo and
>>>>>
>>> Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto
>>> :margo.downey at verizon.net%3Cmailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>>>
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>
>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.or
>>> g%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide.
>>>>> Absolutely nothing. what is this harsh reality stuff? I don't
>>>>> understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Margo and Arrow
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also,
>>>
>>>>> thank
>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are
>>>>> required
>>>>> to
>>>>>> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the
>>>>> foundation I
>>>>>
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane
>>>>> skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> had no idea. I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>>>>> together
>>>>>> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book,
>>> that
>>>>> I am
>>>>>> looking forward to reading your other suggestions. I do realize
>>> how
>>>>> far
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women,
>>>>> gays,
>>>>> and
>>>>>> oh so many others which make up the mosaic that is our country. I
>>>
>>>>> also
>>>>>> appreciate the advancements realized for the blind and the
>>> disabled
>>>>>> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how
>>> much
>>>>> more
>>>>>> needs to be done to ensure equality and access. I have accepted
>>> my
>>>>>> calling
>>>>>> to be a force to be reckoned with to further the efforts of my
>>>>>> predescesors
>>>>>> and be a catalyst to further that effort. I have much to learn,
>>> and
>>>>> have
>>>>>> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from
>>> the
>>>>> new
>>>>>> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off
>>> line
>>>>> we
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county
>>>>> and
>>>>> then
>>>>>> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one
>>>
>>>>> town
>>>>>> hall
>>>>>> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state. I am
>>>
>>>>> here
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or
>>>>> disenfranchised
>>>>>
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> anyone or anything just because I am blind. I did not accept it
>>> as
>>>>> a
>>>>> gay
>>>>>> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively and
>>> empoweringly
>>>>> as
>>>>> I
>>>>>> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay
>>>>> rather
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> a gay man. I thank you and do know I value your experience and
>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>> in this new way I navigate life. Peace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money. The Seeing
>>>>> Eye
>>>>>> charges $150 for your first guide from there. Noah's Assistance
>>>>> Dogs
>>>>>> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog. Some blind people
>>> choose
>>>>> to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars. I do
>>>
>>>>> know
>>>>> of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts
>>> for
>>>>> their
>>>>>> guide dogs. Owner trainers financial investments vary
>>> considerably.
>>>>> If
>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.
>>>>> Add in
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and
>>>>> other
>>>>>> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on
>>> top
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>>> cost of the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting
>>> place,
>>>>> but
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> individuals are still being denied access. I'd like to point out
>>>>> that
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older
>>> than
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and those groups still experience discrimination. It has only
>>> been
>>>>> about
>>>>>> 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in
>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>>> time. Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.
>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>> commend you for being so diligent about learning. I really think
>>>>> reading
>>>>>> everything you possibly can from
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.or
>>> g/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.org/%3Chttp://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.
>>> nfb.org/>>>
>>>>>> especially the older more historical documents will help you
>>>>> understand
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>
>>>>>> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past. I
>>> think
>>>>> it
>>>>>> might
>>>>>>
>>>>>> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the
>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we do. We understand what has been tried, what worked and what
>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now. Many of the
>>> people
>>>>> on
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire
>>>>> life.
>>>>> We
>>>>>> are all still learning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
>>>>> Independence"
>>>>>> it's available at the NFB site I linked above. This article
>>> helped
>>>>> me
>>>>>> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness
>>>>> skills
>>>>> to
>>>>>> living in the real world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as
>>>
>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog. I am
>>> new
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
>>>>> guides
>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it
>>> is
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be,
>>>>>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual
>>> school,
>>>>> but
>>>>> by
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the
>>>>> skill
>>>>> set
>>>>>>> sufficient to create a certification program which would better
>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification
>>> has
>>>>>>> impacted
>>>>>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel
>>> that
>>>>>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how
>>> we
>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
>>>>> promising
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> all. I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I
>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers
>>> and
>>>>> others
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
>>>>> sufficient
>>>>>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective
>>> arenas.
>>>>> I
>>>>> see
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from,
>>> but
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap
>>>
>>>>> out
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
>>>>> brought
>>>>> up
>>>>>>> are my issues as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to
>>>>> certification,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> rather the implementation of that certification. As of yet I
>>> have
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair,
>>>>> unbiased
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers. If
>>> someone
>>>>> can
>>>>>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification
>>> will
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up. Until then I'm a
>>>
>>>>> "no
>>>>>>> certification" gal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification
>>> comes
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
>>>>> "help"
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other
>>> stupidity.
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but
>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> old
>>>>>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were. Agencies
>>>>> offering
>>>>>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness
>>> services
>>>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> have a good track record. Really I like the current laws and
>>> would
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
>>>
>>>>> ones
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms
>>> for
>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMO, a'course
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a
>>> scotch.
>>>>> Well
>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>> schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users
>>>
>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> professionals from the field? Anything different would most
>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>> appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or
>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified,
>>>>> but
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference,
>>> a
>>>>> state
>>>>>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide
>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they
>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.
>>>>> Is
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a
>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
>>>>> position?
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be
>>>>> sufficiently
>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>> in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA
>>> are
>>>>>>>> afforded?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
>>>>>>>> herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me
>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the
>>>
>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is
>>> allowed
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>>>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the
>>> word
>>>>>>>> "certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>>>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I
>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own
>>>>> trainers
>>>>>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs
>>> not
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>>>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do
>>> not
>>>>>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights
>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>>>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really
>>> won,
>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.
>>> com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:paw
>>> power4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail
>>> .com>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Windows Live Only:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotma
>>> il.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailt
>>> o:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania
>>> @hotmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>> org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
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>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veriz
>>> o<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veri
>>> zo%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40v
>>> erizo>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> n.net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40
>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40<http
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>>> www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40>>
>>>>> verizon.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>> a<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hot
>>> ma%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40
>>> hotma>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
>>>>> 40hotmail.com>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>.
>>>>> org
>>>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
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>>> 40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cheryla
>>> ndmaxx%40hotmail.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.or
>>> g/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>>
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>>> eam.net>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>
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