[nagdu] ownership

Wed Jan 6 12:37:39 UTC 2010

I mean MARION. This is not the first time sir, I will pay better attention
to the signature in the line.  If it is any concellation  married people get
that a lot I am told, 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."

Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 8:22 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership

Merry, I like that law, maybe we could get one for people passing their pets
of as service animals.  Would you think we might have to paint our guides
noses red, their bodies white and their tails black? Lol. What a sight that
would be.  I like that law, there is also a white cane law which puts the
onus of responsibility on the driver of cars whenever a cane user or a guide
dog user steps into a pedestrian  walkway, crosswalk, or just plain steps
off the curb. 

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."

Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:16 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership

Linda,
    Florida statute makes it a second degree misdemeanor to "carry a white 
cane or a white cane tipped in red in the extended position". This seems to 
imply, like you state, that it is a crime to impersonate a blind person! 
(smile) When I had more eyesight (around 1986), I was walking down the road 
with my cane folded up and in my back pocket when a cop pulled over thinking

it was a martial arts weapon! (grin)

Fraternally yours,
MarionI once was
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership

> Hi guys,
> I think the "it's illegal to own a guide dog harness" thing comes from the

> same thing about non-blind people using white canes with or without red 
> tips. I don't think there is any actual law that specifically says that it

> is unlawful to own a harness or white cane.  I think the law addresses 
> people owning these things to masquade as a blind person.  The guide 
> harness and white cane have become symbols to alert people that the person

> using these are blind. We all assume that people with these things are 
> blind just as we think a person in a wheelchair is disabled.  These are 
> identity symbols as far as I can tell.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>
>
>> OK, soap box time.
>>
>> I'm getting really sick and tired of the mystique that guide dog schools 
>> seem to endow to guide dog equipment. There, in short, is none. There's 
>> no magic in guide dog equipment, and there's nothing illegal about owning

>> same. * think it *is* illegal to fraudulently claim a disability to 
>> sidestep access laws, but the mere owning of guide dog equipment, which 
>> can be fabricated by any competent harness maker, is completely above 
>> board, and to state or even imply that its ownership is somehow illegal 
>> is just ridiculous.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> More or less what I remember, but what about that harness thing.  I 
>>> remember
>>> being led to believe that it was illegal for anyone to own a harness who

>>> was
>>> not blind or a service animal user as defined by the ADA is that true?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:29 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>> I have the ownership agreement Marion.
>>>
>>> It basically states, I own maxx but not his harness and that is the 
>>> property
>>> of GDF. If in the future I decided that I cannot care for maxx and 
>>> cannot
>>> find him a home, then I can bring him back to the school.
>>>
>>> I think Jeanine Stanley is on here and she should be able to go into it 
>>> as
>>> well.  I also get assistance with the school in the way of vet care.
>>>
>>> That is how I understand it.
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> Independent Contractor
>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>  From: Marion & Martin<mailto:swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>>  To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>  Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:11 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>      Though GDF does provide ownership, there are some strings attached
>>> that
>>>  I intend to discuss with them. Since I do not have the ownership 
>>> agreement
>>>
>>>  in front of me, I will withhold my comments concerning the details.
>>>
>>>  Fraternally yours,
>>>  Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>  From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net<mailto:julielj at windstream.net>>
>>>  To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>  <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:31 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> GDF does offer ownership.
>>>>
>>>> For me ownership is an absolute must.  People's views on ownership vary
>>>> considerably.  We've discussed it here before and I'm sure it will come
>>> up
>>>> in another 6 months again.  It is one of the topics that we all just
>>> agree
>>>> to disagree on.
>>>>
>>>> We've discussed financial contributions toward the price of a guide dog
>>>> too. I'm still in favor.  Perhaps it's my own personal issues that make
>>> me
>>>> feel uncomfortable  with the idea of not paying for something.  I don't
>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria"
>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com<mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:52 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when he
>>>>> retires.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>
>>>
www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>
>>>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>
ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>> el.com>>
>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: Albert J
>>> Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive
>>>>> others
>>>>> away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not
>>>>> expect
>>>>> to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that those
>>>>> handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told me
>>>>> about,
>>>>> allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply are
>>>>> loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the
>>> dog
>>>>> back
>>>>> if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of contributing
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen
>>> fit
>>>>> to
>>>>> actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay
>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>> privilege of getting a guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>
>>>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From:
>>>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>> Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we
>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>> pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with
>>>>> our
>>>>> first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price.  We
>>>>> didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>>
riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.
>>>
com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/%3Chttp://www.echevarriatravel.com%3cht
>>> tp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>>
>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>
ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>
el.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echeva
>>>
rriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservati
>>> ons at echevarriatravel.com>>>
>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>   From: Margo and
>>>>>
>>>
Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto
>>> :margo.downey at verizon.net%3Cmailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>>>
>>>>>   To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>
>>>
Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.or
>>> g%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>   Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide.
>>>>>   Absolutely nothing.  what is this harsh reality stuff?  I don't
>>>>> understand.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Margo and Arrow
>>>>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>   From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>
pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>
to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>   To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>
agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also,
>>>
>>>>> thank
>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are
>>>>> required
>>>>> to
>>>>>> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the
>>>>> foundation I
>>>>>
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane
>>>>> skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> had no idea.  I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>>>>> together
>>>>>> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book,
>>> that
>>>>> I am
>>>>>> looking forward to reading your other suggestions.  I do realize
>>> how
>>>>> far
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women,
>>>>> gays,
>>>>> and
>>>>>> oh so many others which make up the mosaic  that is our country. I
>>>
>>>>> also
>>>>>> appreciate the advancements  realized for the blind and the
>>> disabled
>>>>>> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how
>>> much
>>>>> more
>>>>>> needs to be done to ensure equality and access.  I have accepted
>>> my
>>>>>> calling
>>>>>> to be a force to be reckoned  with to further the efforts of my
>>>>>> predescesors
>>>>>> and be a catalyst  to further that effort. I have much to learn,
>>> and
>>>>> have
>>>>>> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from
>>> the
>>>>> new
>>>>>> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off
>>> line
>>>>> we
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county
>>>>> and
>>>>> then
>>>>>> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one
>>>
>>>>> town
>>>>>> hall
>>>>>> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state.  I am
>>>
>>>>> here
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or
>>>>> disenfranchised
>>>>>
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> anyone or anything just because  I am blind. I did not accept it
>>> as
>>>>> a
>>>>> gay
>>>>>> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively  and
>>> empoweringly
>>>>> as
>>>>> I
>>>>>> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay
>>>>> rather
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> a gay man.  I thank you and do know I value your experience  and
>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>> in this new way I navigate  life. Peace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>
chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>
s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>
rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money.  The Seeing
>>>>> Eye
>>>>>> charges $150 for your first guide from there.  Noah's Assistance
>>>>> Dogs
>>>>>> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog.  Some blind people
>>> choose
>>>>> to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars.  I do
>>>
>>>>> know
>>>>> of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts
>>> for
>>>>> their
>>>>>> guide dogs.  Owner trainers financial investments vary
>>> considerably.
>>>>> If
>>>>>
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.
>>>>> Add in
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and
>>>>> other
>>>>>> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on
>>> top
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>>> cost of the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting
>>> place,
>>>>> but
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> individuals are still being denied access.  I'd like to point out
>>>>> that
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older
>>> than
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and those groups still experience discrimination.  It has only
>>> been
>>>>> about
>>>>>> 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in
>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>>> time.  Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.
>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>> commend you for  being so diligent about learning.  I really think
>>>>> reading
>>>>>> everything you possibly can from
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.or
>>>
g/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.org/%3Chttp://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.
>>> nfb.org/>>>
>>>>>> especially the older more historical documents will help you
>>>>> understand
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>
>>>>>> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past.  I
>>> think
>>>>> it
>>>>>> might
>>>>>>
>>>>>> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the
>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we do.   We understand what has been tried, what worked and what
>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now.  Many of the
>>> people
>>>>> on
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire
>>>>> life.
>>>>> We
>>>>>> are all still learning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
>>>>> Independence"
>>>>>> it's available at the NFB site I linked above.  This article
>>> helped
>>>>> me
>>>>>> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness
>>>>> skills
>>>>> to
>>>>>> living in the real world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>
pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>
to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>
agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as
>>>
>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am
>>> new
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
>>>>> guides
>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it
>>> is
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be,
>>>>>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual
>>> school,
>>>>> but
>>>>> by
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the
>>>>> skill
>>>>> set
>>>>>>> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better
>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification
>>> has
>>>>>>> impacted
>>>>>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel
>>> that
>>>>>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how
>>> we
>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
>>>>> promising
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I
>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers
>>> and
>>>>> others
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
>>>>> sufficient
>>>>>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective
>>> arenas.
>>>>> I
>>>>> see
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from,
>>> but
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>
chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>
s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>
rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap
>>>
>>>>> out
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
>>>>> brought
>>>>> up
>>>>>>> are my issues as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to
>>>>> certification,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I
>>> have
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair,
>>>>> unbiased
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If
>>> someone
>>>>> can
>>>>>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification
>>> will
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a
>>>
>>>>> "no
>>>>>>> certification" gal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification
>>> comes
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
>>>>> "help"
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other
>>> stupidity.
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but
>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> old
>>>>>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies
>>>>> offering
>>>>>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness
>>> services
>>>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and
>>> would
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
>>>
>>>>> ones
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms
>>> for
>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMO, a'course
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>
pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>
to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>
agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a
>>> scotch.
>>>>> Well
>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users
>>>
>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most
>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or
>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified,
>>>>> but
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference,
>>> a
>>>>> state
>>>>>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide
>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they
>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.
>>>>> Is
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a
>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
>>>>> position?
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be
>>>>> sufficiently
>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA
>>> are
>>>>>>>> afforded?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>
chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>> one
>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>
>>>
nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>
s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>
rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
>>>>>>>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me
>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the
>>>
>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is
>>> allowed
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>>>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the
>>> word
>>>>>>>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>>>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I
>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own
>>>>> trainers
>>>>>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs
>>> not
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>>>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do
>>> not
>>>>>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights
>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>>>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really
>>> won,
>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.
>>>
com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:paw
>>>
power4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail
>>> .com>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Windows Live Only:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotma
>>>
il.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailt
>>>
o:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania
>>> @hotmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>
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>>>
.or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>
net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>
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>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>
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>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> m>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>> m>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> t>><
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>> t>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>> org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
zo%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40v
>>> erizo>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40>>
>>>>> verizon.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>   nagdu mailing list
>>>>>
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>>>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
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>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
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>>> for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
ma%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40
>>> hotma>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> 40hotmail.com>
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>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>
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