[nagdu] Stuff about poodles
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Thu Jan 14 20:24:52 UTC 2010
Gary,
Sorry for the late response! I cleaned out all those links from my
bookmarks a while ago. Most of what I read was on the internet, and I
talked to a lot of people. Now I wish I could remember where some of the
articles are. So I did a search for poodle on Google and found a bunch of
links. I won't post all of them here, but I'll give you a couple to get
started with:
http://www.standardpoodlesusa.com/index.html
http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/index.cfm
http://www.poodleclubofamerica.org/
As I recall, all of those sites have links to other sites... I started to
follow them, then realized I needed to get undistracted. /smile/
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Gary
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:38 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Hi Tami
You mentioned "all the stuff I read about poodles". As I am getting a poodle
as a guide I was wondering if you could put me onto some good resources to
learn more about this interesting dog? Obviously, I won't be owner training
but I sure would like to learn more about the breeds idiosyncracies.
I appreciate any resources you think would be of use to me.
Thanks
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:23 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Hm... Thinking back to when I first started (about 300 years ago? Or 3?),
I was unsure enough of the law that I tought Mitzi to point out things I
dropped before I started taking her to anyplace more public than the dog
park. /smile/ Since I was barely back on my feet and the time, and my
hands were completely numb as well as nonfunctional, this was actually a
legit service. She still does that, by the way. I didn't teach her to pick
up what she showed me, since I had concerns about scavenging, so she still
won't pick stuff up for me. She just shows me and expects me to bend my
lazy self over and pick it up. She still scavenges every time she gets a
chance! /grin/
Now that I'm more educated about the ins and outs of the law and all that, I
realize I didn't actually have to do that. Well, it was pretty useful, and
in that respect I had to. But I didn't have to in order to be covered by
the law. At least that is my understanding. I needed to have my dog clean
and well-groomed, and I needed to have her under control and all that good
stuff. If I had gone in and let her do as she pleased, that would have been
out of bounds! I used the command "in bounds" quite a lot back then! Also,
"humans have boundaries!" /lol/ I said it once, joking, then was stuck
with it. Poodles are like that, I guess, only I had believed that half the
stuff I read about poodles couldn't possibly be true... /lol/ So I have
some really embarrassing commands because she doesn't do repetitions... She
gets it the first time! Scary dog.
Anyway, I was legit taking her into stores, on the bus, whatever.... I was
also responsible for the little monster's behavior and cleanliness! I was
new enough to being blind, and also barely on my feet and conscious, and my
hyper black curly thingamagig was in constant motion, so part of my PR was
to invite the clerks, managers, whoever of whichever corner store I entered
to do my "training" to let me know if she got into something she shouldn't.
I would pay for it, I promised, and remove her from the premises. Of
course, the little snot is so stinkin' cute, they would gush and say "oh,
that's okay!" when she started to get out of hand and I tried to bring her
back in line. Sigh. But I quickly discovered that if she got out of hand
and I left her home the next time I went out, she would shape right up.
/lol/ She would push the envelope, but she would never break it. Funny,
funny girl. I'm still not allowed out of the house without her, BTW. I
just left the house for 5 minutes and came back to be mugged and checked
over and.... Silly critter.
Well, I guess I never thought to ask my owner-trainer friends and idols what
they do about those issues. Probably pretty much -- in principle, at least
-- the same sort of thing I did. You train and train, and you adapt to your
dog, and you adapt to your surroundings, then you figure out how to get what
you need without breaking the law or -- even worse! -- poisoning a place of
accommodation for whichever guide dog user decides to stop for a candy bar
next. /grin/
The important thing is that we are able to do that under the law. And, like
any other guide/service dog handler, we are required to be responsible for
ourselves and our animals under the law. This, I see as a the perfect
balance, so I'm happy with it. Even when I've misjudged my youngster and
(this has happened only once, except for at NAGDU meetings at the '08
convention -- we just won't talk about *that*!) have to remove her for
disruptive behaviors. That was at the '08 Convention, too, and the wait
staff insisted that she was just fine, nobody was complaining, and I had
this really expensive dinner (and drink!) I wanted to enjoy after a hard and
starvation-driven day.... But it was my misjudgment that had me there all
overwhelmed with an overwhelmed young poodle, so I got my really, really
expensive -- and quite yummy! -- meal put into styrofoam along with my
favorite nummy drink -- and went gumbling back to my room. Which worked
out, since I got to spend time with my roommate, whom I have thought had
other plans.
Lesson: Do *not* go to convention without a cell phone! Also, do not go to
your first Convention with a barely 2-year-old poodle guide because you will
spend a lot of time sitting ourside relaxing with your dog, which is pretty
much what you do at home. /gron/
Okay, I'm behind again, so back to reading!
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:22 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
I am happy to hear that you have worked it out and that you are able to
owner train your guide and do so as adeptly, although as exhaustedly as it
sounds. If as an owner trainer you feel that you are sufficiently protected
then cool! What of our brothers and sisters in areas not so progressive and
accepting of bending the law or turning a blind eye as it were. Is this a
real concern at all? Or would as suggested by Julie enacting measures to
consider the repeated misrepresentation of a pet as a service animal put
this entire dialogue to rest if these repeat offenders were charge legally
and found to be in violation of the ADA as written?
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 2:28 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Albert,
I'm late, I know. But my understanding is that this already happens with
the major schools. At least with guide dogs. There are days when we go
downtown where you can't swing a cat without hitting a guide dog in training
with a sighted trainer from GDB. They use the same training grounds I have,
in fact. And puppy raisers with their charges in green GDB vests are also a
common sight. One point on which many people evaluate prospective guide dog
schools when they start applying is by what kind of training the school does
in what scenarios. The early training goes on in simulated environments,
too; but when the pups are ready, out they go to work in the real world!
I know there are trainers out there who train guide dogs (for a hefty fee!)
privately, and I don't know how they deal with the real world part of the
training process. But the reputable programs definintely have that covered
already!
One thing I have found as an owner trainer is that *not* having a good
simulation environment for some task and behavior training makes things a
bit tough, at least for a trainer of a Mitzi poodle! We managed to work it
out using a gradual exposure method the name of which I can't think just
now. Not being able to see what that nose was up to was also a big
drawback, although it only got out of bounds on its own a time or two early
on, and it did not cause a disaster. I'm still jumpy in restaurants,
though, just because of all the things I used to have to watch out for!
/lol/ We did all the ground training and stuff way before we started going
into public, of course, but I also had to do a lot of exposure training on
the fly with her to start teaching her to manage that energy and
overstimulation. I feel exhausted just thinking about it! /lol/ Then
someone would come up and tell me they've been breeding poodles for 900
years and have never seen such a mellow poodle! Talk about having your hair
stand on end.
Anyway, whether you're a program or an owner-trainer, yes, you do have to do
a lot of socialization and exposure and real world work with your dog in
training before you can call it a "real' guide dog or service dog. And as
an owner-trainer, you do have to figure out how to manage access issues with
your green pup so that everybody is happy and you don't cause problems for
yourself or for the next person who wants to come in with a guide dog. But
we do seem to be well enough protected by the existing laws, and adding a
federally required certification won't change that!
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:45 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch. Well why
is there an assumption that certification will be granted by individual
schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users an
professionals from the field? Anything different would most certainly
appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or is not a
certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but that the
trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and trained
either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a state
standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler. Is that not
proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide prior
to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position? I am
not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently trained
in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA are afforded?
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of The Pawpower Pack
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Albert,
Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
allowed on pubtrans.
I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
training into places of public accommodation.
There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
"certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I think
it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
involved in certifying my dog.
My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do not
think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
largely non-disabled trainers.
Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
"Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
earn it and win it in every generation."
-- Coretta Scott King
pawpower4me at gmail.com
Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
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