[nagdu] dogs with medical concerns before issued

Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com
Fri Jun 4 18:01:28 UTC 2010


Thank you Julie. This is exactly what I was trying to get Marsha to
explain. I probably didn't do it very well. I think Marsha, the
operative word you used in your follow-up post was "sketchy". Well, yes,
any business that is sketchy will do things improperly. This is
different from a small business making a more noticeable mistake that is
an honest mistake. 
You made what I deemed to be two blanket statements and no supporting
data. I was simply asking for more information.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Julie J
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:51 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] dogs with medical concerns before issued

Marsha,

Thank you for sharing!  I hope you will post more to the list.  I like
to 
read your thoughts.

I don't think Rebecca was making accusations or flaming.  I honestly saw
it 
is as a request for information to support your position.

When I went through residential training, there was a gentleman there
who 
had just recieved a dog not too long before.  He had previously thought
that 
getting a guide dog would fix his O&M problems.  It didn't, but the 
residential training program did help a lot.  Anyway his dog was from
KSDS, 
lovely dog who worked splendidly from all I gathered.  But KSDS did
place 
the dog with him knowing his issues with mobility.  The really cool
thing is 
that the trainers from KSDS were very open to learning how to better
serve 
their clients.  Two of the trainers came to the residential training
program 
and spent two weeks  learning to use a cane under blindfold.
I'm sure the bigger schools have made mistakes too.  After all, they
were 
little schools once.  It's how you learn.  I honestly don't think that
the 
small programs have a monopoly on mistakes, but I do think it is
probably 
more noticeable when they do.  It's just simple math.  If a program only

puts out 10 dogs per year and one match is a disaster, that's 10%.  But
a 
bigger school that puts out 100 teams per year and has the same single 
disaster, well that's 1%.   Which is the better school?  I don't think 
there's any really good answer.

Julie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] dogs with medical concerns before issued


> We all know that people who do not have some O&M skills should not
have
> guides, and no I am not saying those that choose not to use a cane.
But 
> for
> example if a person who had no O&M skills applied for a guide, went
for
> training, they would have a harder time, then those of who have O&M 
> skills.
> This does happen that people who do not have O&M skills do apply to
the
> guide dog schools, for what ever reason the school did not pick up on
it
> while in the interview process, but learn of the lack of skills while
in
> training. I am not faulting that a person is bad for having no O&M
skills.
> Because as all of us who have lost our vision, have had to start from
some
> place.
>
> As well I am saying that those "smaller: schools who have sketchy
> reputations, do not have the litter of dogs that other bigger schools
do.
> Again this is not to say that all dogs who come out of a school have
to 
> come
> from big schools with big puppy raising programs. As we know, from
this
> list, there are people here who, have owner trained their dogs, and
use 
> pups
> from shelters and other sources. As well those schools with sketchy
> reputations might not have the same staff to do the high quality
training,
> or the vets to give the dogs the needed care. In other words, if the
> instructors who do not train the dogs right, are not going to be good
> guides. As well with the vet staff, for the school to check for known 
> health
> concerns before being issued.  As well smaller schools "might" feel
the 
> need
> to issues dogs, that either do not need to be guides, or to those do
not
> need them, in order to compete with the bigger schools. Again I don't
work
> for a guide dog school, so I am not sure of these same questions and 
> issues.
> All I know of smaller schools with sketchy reputations is ONLY from 
> talking
> to other guide dog users. Everyone is going to have an opinion about a
> school. I am NOT saying any school is better than another, nor am I
> endorsing one school.
>
> Again this is not saying that small schools are worse, or better 
> oranything.
> I am not saying that big schools have better dogs or anything. It is
all 
> up
> to the handler, all up to what they want from a guide or service
animal. 
> It
> is all up to a handler to what they want out of a school and there 
> training
> at that school.
>
> I hope I have covered my arse in all the points. See this is why I
don't
> post much, because from one post, from one simple post, I am flamed.
> *rolling eyes*
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 9:14 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] dogs with medical concerns before issued
>
> Why do you specifically call out smaller schools stating that they
match
> people who shouldn't have guides and that they send out dogs with
known
> or questionable medical backgrounds? How do you determine who should
and
> shouldn't have a guide? Why do you say the smaller schools are more
> prone to behave less honestly and what is your imperic criteria?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:25 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] dogs with medical concerns before issued
>
> Nicole,
>
> By no means do I think a school will "knowingly" issue a dog with a
> medical
> issue. But with that said, my previous dog had allergies, but until we
> were
> out working, and in Texas did I find this out. No the school did not
> know
> about it, and no did not take responsibility for it. Because how could
> they
> have. I am not saying either that this is the cause for all the dogs
and
> all
> the schools, but in my case only. I would say that there are some of
the
> smaller schools, who perhaps might, feel the need to put dogs who are
> not
> meant to be guides, who have medical issues, and might go to a person
> who
> really does not need a guide. Those are the schools who have sketchy
> training programs. Saddly the schools do there best when it comes to
> training dogs, and issuing the ones that they do not believe to have
> medical
> concerns.
>
> I don't want anyone to get the feeling that I am pointing any fingers,
> because I am not. It is just something that is.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Nicole B. Torcolini
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:52 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update was annoying behavior to Cathryn
>
> I find it hard to believe that a school would not tell you about your
> dog's
> medical problems. When I received Lexia, everyone went to the school
vet
>
> with their dog for the dog to get vaccinated and to learn the dog's
> medical
> history, which was also one of the many pieces of paperwork in a
binder
> that
>
> we received with info on our dogs.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 7:06 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Update was annoying behavior to Cathryn
>
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> As far as I know Emma does not have any medical issues. I am in the
>> process
>> of finding a vet in my area, as she is due for a check up. When Emma
> was
>> back at the SE last year, she didn't have any medical issues. I have
> also
>> worked with a dog, froma  different school, with medical issues they
> did
>> not
>> tell me about.
>>
>> As far as the update goes, I have changed her to a once daily meal.
> And
>> she
>> seems very very interested in this. She doesn't even consider what I
> am
>> doing during the meal now. Now the tricky part that I am having is
how
>> "much" to give her. With two meals, she was receiving 4 cups a day.
> But
>> since this is a once a day meal, I do not want to overload her tummy
> with
>> too much food. I have been working her up to 3 1/2 cups a day. Adding
> a
>> little a day. For us this is going to work out better, because she is
>> actually interested in the food, unlike before she could careless. I
> can't
>> get her to eat out of my hand. Even with treats she does really care
> ofr
>> those either. But maybe it is just that I need to find the right
> treat.
>> Not
>> too much to update on.
>>
>> Thanks for all the advice and suggestions,
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Cathryn Bonnette
>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:04 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] annoying behavior to Cathryn
>>
>> Marsha,
>>
>> Generally, I didn't move the dog dish around much, but with the first
> 2
>> shepherds, who were the most difficult due to undiagnosed medical
>> problems,
>> the dish was within the dog's line of sight from the dining table so
> they
>> could eat when I did. Another approach is to leave dry kibble in the
> bowl
>> in
>> the morning, and let it stay down all day. If she wants it, she'll
eat
> it.
>> If Emma is at the proper weight with no health problems, she will
> probably
>> sort out the food thing herself, even if you put dry food down and
> leave
>> it
>> for her to eat when she wants it.  To prevent the morning stomach
> upset,
>> you
>> can carry a sandwich bag with a handful of dry kibble in your purse
> and
>> give
>> her a few pieces later in the morning when she seems interested. She
> may
>> have been discouraged from hand feeding, so put 1 piece on the floor
> and
>> let
>> her eat it and repeat a few times.
>> A consideration is whether your vet says Emma is at an appropriate
> weight
>> or
>> not. Low weight means you try more extreme measures. My first dog
> required
>
>> 3
>> cans of RX canned dog food per day due to mishandling by the San
> Rafael
>> folks!
>> If she is underweight, your vet can advise specifically, but my
> approach
>> was
>> to confirm what a bland diet was for that particular dog, find some
> bland
>> foods the dog liked and cook whatever was reasonable and needed to
>> interest
>> the dog in eating that meal, such as scrambled eggs, ground beef with
> the
>> grease removed, mixed with rice or mashed potatoes as the vet
directs,
>
>> etc.
>> Here, I am referring to serious problems such as a dog losing 10 lbs
> or
>> more
>> creating an urgent need for weight gain while allergies, colitis,
etc.
>> interfered with eating on a long term basis, and disrupted   my work
> as
>> well
>> as the dog's.
>> I often stayed with the dogs as they ate, petting and talking to
them,
>> making the meal as positive an experience as I could since the risk
of
>> eating the meal was more illness, but the effort was important.
>> If your chosen vet has not given Emma a clean bill of health, you
need
> to
>> think about medical conditions that may be interfering with her food
>> intake.
>> Shepherds can be picky eaters, but the cause is sometimes digestive
> etc.
>> Unfortunately the schools do not always diagnose or inform you of
> medical
>> problems- a statement I make after working with 2 dogs with multiple
>> serious
>> medical problems the schools never disclosed.
>> I'm so glad Abby is usually very ready to eat whatever is available
>> without
>> hesitation/smile/.
>> OOOPS-Sorry for the long message.
>>
>> Keep us posted, and all the best!
>>
>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Marsha Drenth
>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 2:40 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] annoying behavior to Cathryn
>>
>> Cathryn,
>>
>> I try very very hard so that she does not get into the cat food. I
> know
>> cat
>> food for dogs can be harmful. Saddly emma does not like, or will not
> eat
>> out
>> of my hand. I put water into her food too, so feeding her from the
> bowl is
>
>> a
>> bit hard too. I might try reduce her feedings to once a day and see
> what
>> happens.
>>
>> Were any of your shepards very particular about where there food was
>> placed
>> for there feedings? I have noticed that if, I put Emma's food down in
> a
>> different spot than, I typically put it, then she is a bit more poky
> in
>> eating it too. Its like out of her normal and she likes routine.
> Sometimes
>
>> I
>> have to feed her, even when I can't put in the same spot, because we
> are
>> cooking or doing something in the kitchen.
>>
>> I know shepards are very set in routine, but wow!
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, something will work out for us eventually!
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Cathryn Bonnette
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:17 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] annoying behavior
>>
>> Hi Marsha,
>>
>> I've handled 2 shepherds who were not interested in food.  What I did
> was
>> to
>> eliminate 1 feeding time at first. A healthy dog will not refuse food
>> forever. You could try fasting Emma for 1 day so she should be
hungry,
>
>> then
>> offering her food in the morning and leaving it down for a specified
> time
>> period. They suggest half an hour or so. If she doesn't eat it, put
it
>
>> away,
>> and try again at the next feeding time. Since cat food has
> approximately 9
>> times the calories of dog food, and can cause heart problems, I
> personally
>> would take the cat food up during Emma's feeding times, but that's
> just
>> me.
>> I have had 3 shepherds so far, and all of them like to eat out of my
> hand.
>> The way I handle that is to start the dog eating with 1 or 2 pieces
of
>
>> food
>> in my hand. When that is gone, and the dog sniffs my hand for more, I
> take
>> another few pieces out of the bowl and let the dog eat it. After the
> dog
>> has
>> the taste of the food, she will want more. I keep my hand close to
the
>
>> bowl
>> or even over the bowl as the dog eats. After 3 or so repetitions of
> this,
>> the dog sniffs for more and I only have 1 piece in my hand as my hand
>> rests
>> in the bowl so the dog will transition to getting the food from the
> bowl.
>> As
>> far as wanting you to be n the room, I think that is just social
> behavior.
>> When my dogs act that way, I have put their food down when    we are
>> fixing
>> and eating a regular meal so the dog can eat at the same time. (That
>> assumes
>> you are being consistent about no begging.) Since I eventually
> discovered
>> that the food problems were health related, the behaviors were
> persistant,
>> but these techniques worked.
>>
>> If you like, contact me off list at catthrynisfinally at verizon.net.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Cathryn Bonnette
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Marsha Drenth
>> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 10:13 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] annoying behavior
>>
>> Hi Listers,
>>
>> Emma is having a bit of annoying behavior, and I am not sure how to
> solve
>> this problem, thus why I am writing.
>>
>> I feed Emma twice a day, on a pretty regular basis. She gets her food
> in
>> the
>> kitchen every single day. So in other words our routine is very
> normal. I
>> even put her food in the same spot almost every day. She is a shepard
>> granted, so maybe this is normal. I am not sure.
>>
>> So for the problem. If I am not standing right there with her, she
> will
>> NOT
>> eat her food. If I am needing to do work at the sink, or some place
in
> the
>> kitchen she is fine, but once I walk away, out of the kitchen she
> stops
>> eating. And in some cases has gone for the cats food. I have caught
> her in
>> those situations, and given her a nice firm Fooyie. I have even
> offered
>> her
>> the cats food, and when she goes for it, given her a Fooyie. Its
> annoying
>> because, I would like her to eat, and for me to go on with my
business
> of
>> the day. Not to stand with her and hold her hand while she eats. If
> she
>> walks away from the food, I do not give her the chance to go back to
> it.
>> And
>> if I am not in the room, and the cat is, she will chase after the
cat,
> and
>> again not eat.
>>
>> I know, I know, shepards aren't that interested in food, but I want
> her to
>> eat. Emma definitely falls into the GSD's who do not care about food.
>>
>> Any suggestions on this matter. I am more concerned with her not
> wanting
>> to
>> eat while I am in the room. The cat food bowl is across the room, not
> next
>> to her, so she has to leave her food to get to it. Maybe I am over
>> reacting
>> in this matter, its just annoying!
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions in advance,
>> Marsha and the Emma brat!
>>
>>
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