[nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick street

cheryl echevarria cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Wed Mar 24 21:21:50 UTC 2010


Again, this is not a blind issue, when someone learns to drive and earns a license they are in control of the vehicle being someone who used to drive and a pedestrian. It comes down to not being blind, we are all pedestrians, whether we have a cane or a dog or not.  There are people that use sighted guides as well, the driver still has to watch out and be responsible. 

Cheryl Echevarria 
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Marion Gwizdala<mailto:blind411 at verizon.net> 
  To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick street


  Tracy,
      What I find offensive is the assertion that others are responsible for 
  our safety, even when we act in an irresponsible, irrational, dangerous, and 
  negligent manner. On the one hand, we want to be treated as equals; on the 
  other hand, we want the public to be responsible for our safety! My message 
  was to bring home the point that we must act in a responsible manner and 
  only we are responsible for our safety.

  Fraternally yours,
  Marion



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net>>
  To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
  <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick street


  >>     My message may have sounded a bit sardonic; perhaps that was my
  >> intention!
  >
  > Sardonic?!  I thought it was quite rude, frankly.  It reminded me strongly
  > of the time when the NFB and ACB were discussing warning strips on subway
  > platforms here in NYC, and some of the ACB people present said they wished
  > our NFB president would fall down and be killed by a train.  Not funny.
  > Not civil.  Not helpful.
  > Tracy
  >
  > As for the technique of extending the white cane at an arm's
  >> length, I am sure that this law was not written by an expert in the field
  >> of
  >> Orientation & Mobility instruction, but by a legislature that has no clue
  >> about how blind people travel safely. You can try this technique, but I
  >> believe the outcome would be the same as my suggestion to Albert. I
  >> believe
  >> one needs to find a signal-controlled intersection and cross with the 
  >> flow
  >> of traffic.
  >>
  >> Fraternally yours,
  >> Marion Gwizdala
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> ----- Original Message -----
  >> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com<mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com>>
  >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:00 PM
  >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick
  >> street
  >>
  >>
  >>> Marion,
  >>> Can we keep it a little more civil, please? Telling someone to go step
  >>> into traffic is not very nice, and it sounds a little bit (if not a
  >>> lot) sardonic.
  >>>
  >>> I don't think Albert is saying that drivers should stop on a dime, but
  >>> if I extend my cane at arm's length at a crosswalk, wait a minute, and
  >>> then step out, I think I should be reasonably able to assume that the
  >>> cars have had enough time to come to a full stop in a pedestrian-heavy
  >>> area where the speed limit is *supposed* to be 25 mph anyway. For a
  >>> street with faster speeds, I should reasonably assume that I need to
  >>> extend my cane for a longer time to give cars more time to come to a
  >>> full stop. Obviously, a car going at 50 mph is not going to be able to
  >>> stop in a minute's notice, but if I extend my cane for 3 minutes, that
  >>> should give cars enough time to notice my cane and stop. As for
  >>> highways...well, I wouldn't even consider attempting this yielding
  >>> rule on a highway...I'd soon be roadkill!
  >>>
  >>> No one is saying that all cars must come to a full stop as soon as a
  >>> blind pedestrian comes to the curb. Blind pedestrians can find the
  >>> curb, and are expected to give fair warning to drivers. But once the
  >>> pedestrian is at the crossing and gives warning, the cars should all
  >>> stop and give right-of-way to the pedestrian. This is the law (at
  >>> least in NC), and should be followed, though it isn't at this time. I
  >>> hope to correct that, at least in the state's capital where I live.
  >>>
  >>> Let's try to all remain civil and friendly, and if we disagree and
  >>> can't agree, like Alfred said, agree to disagree and go on with life.
  >>>
  >>> ~Jewel
  >>>
  >>> On 3/23/10, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net<mailto:blind411 at verizon.net>> wrote:
  >>>> Albert,
  >>>>     I have an idea! Go to a busy intersection in new York City and step
  >>>> out
  >>>> into traffic! Let us know how you fare in court, if you are alive to
  >>>> fare!
  >>>>
  >>>> Marion
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>> ----- Original Message -----
  >>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
  >>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
  >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:44 PM
  >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick
  >>>> street
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>> Maybe we should just agree to disagree. I am not inclined to follow
  >>>>> your
  >>>>> line of thinking here especially when laws such as the ones on the
  >>>>> books
  >>>>> in
  >>>>> many states require a car to stop the moment a blind person steps into
  >>>>> the
  >>>>> road, I have seen that even if the blind person neglected to use his
  >>>>> cane
  >>>>> or
  >>>>> dog and should for whatever reason fly solo, this would not preclude a
  >>>>> driver from taking responsibility to stop and allow the pedestrian to
  >>>>> pass.
  >>>>> So, it seems we are going to agree to disagree here,
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
  >>>>> CEO/Founder
  >>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
  >>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
  >>>>> New York, New York  10004
  >>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
  >>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
  >>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
  >>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
  >>>>> who
  >>>>> is
  >>>>> doing it."
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
  >>>>> -----Original Message-----
  >>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  >>>>> Behalf
  >>>>> Of Marion Gwizdala
  >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:03 PM
  >>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
  >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick
  >>>>> street
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Albert,
  >>>>>    As you stated, drivers should use "due caution" to avoid striking a
  >>>>> pedestrian. At the same time, if that pedestrian - whether blind or
  >>>>> sighted - is crossing against the light and is struck or in any other
  >>>>> way
  >>>>> causes a traffic crash, such a pedestrian may likely be party to a law
  >>>>> suit
  >>>>> to recover damages resulting from the crash. The only thing I see in
  >>>>> the
  >>>>> laws that I have read is that the failure of a blind person to use a
  >>>>> cane
  >>>>> or
  >>>>>
  >>>>> guide dog cannot be used to assign a portion of the contributory
  >>>>> negligence.
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Other than that fact, the negligence of a blind person to observe
  >>>>> other
  >>>>> laws
  >>>>>
  >>>>> pertaining to safe pedestrian travel can be used to assign a person's
  >>>>> contribution to the incident that causes the damages being recovered.
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Fraternally yours,
  >>>>> Marion Gwizdala
  >>>>>
  >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
  >>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
  >>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
  >>>>> Users'"
  >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:42 PM
  >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick
  >>>>> street
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
  >>>>>> No, not unless and until there are audible crossing signs to allow
  >>>>>> for
  >>>>>> our
  >>>>>> choice to ignore said signage and then perhaps only then could I see
  >>>>>> a
  >>>>>> lawyer attempting to make that case. However, an elementary glance at
  >>>>>> the
  >>>>>> laws as they pertain to pedestrians of all abilities make the drivers
  >>>>>> responsible  for taking all actions to avoid hitting a pedestrian.
  >>>>>> Now,
  >>>>>> how
  >>>>>> all that would play out in court should it go that far is only to be
  >>>>>> decided
  >>>>>> in a court room. But first and foremost, blind or not the laws as
  >>>>>> written
  >>>>>> require that all drivers yield the right of way to a pedestrian,
  >>>>>> unless
  >>>>>> that
  >>>>>> is a specific law includes guidelines pointing out specifically that
  >>>>>> a
  >>>>>> drivers responsibility is waived if a pedestrian crosses against the
  >>>>>> light.
  >>>>>> I have yet to see any statute expressly making such a statement. If
  >>>>>> you
  >>>>>> can
  >>>>>> find one share it here could make the discussion a little more
  >>>>>> interesting.
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
  >>>>>> CEO/Founder
  >>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
  >>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
  >>>>>> New York, New York  10004
  >>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
  >>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
  >>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
  >>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
  >>>>>> who
  >>>>>> is
  >>>>>> doing it."
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
  >>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  >>>>>> Behalf
  >>>>>> Of Dan Weiner
  >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:09 PM
  >>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
  >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Washington - Guide dog killed crossing Kennewick
  >>>>>> street
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>> , a hypothetical question, guys.
  >>>>>> Now, whether we like to admit it or now, all of us have crossed
  >>>>>> against
  >>>>>> the
  >>>>>> light at least once.
  >>>>>> There's no moving traffic, or the cars turn in strange ways or
  >>>>>> something.
  >>>>>> So, if we cross against the light, but not deliberately in to
  >>>>>> traffic,
  >>>>>> what
  >>>>>> would be the implications of that?
  >>>>>> Would you then say that we have partial responsibility?
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>> Dan W. and the big boy, Carter
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>>
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  >>>>>> org
  >>>>>>
  >>>>>>
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  >>>>> t
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
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  >>>>> org
  >>>>>
  >>>>>
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  >>>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
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