[nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
Albert J Rizzi
albert at myblindspot.org
Fri Mar 26 14:48:40 UTC 2010
And what great and inclusive thoughts they are.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Gary
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:11 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
Hello:
Of course I agree with the fact that having silent cars create noise and
audible traffic signals are not the same issue.
First, let me state that I am totally for the laws being moved forward to
create sounds in electric silent cars. However, I think that audible traffic
signals are a great assistance to all people. It is great to say that at a
four way stop we don't need audible signals but I live in a city where there
are probably over a 100 audible signals and I certainly believe that they
tmake getting around the city much easier especially considering I have to
often cross six lane roads. Of course I don't blindly start walking (pardon
the pun) once I hear the signal but as someone stated earlier, I then know
that the sign says walk. Now it is up to me to use my other senses to be
sure that the intersection is truly safe before I proceed.
Secondly, when I make my request for audible signals to the city staff, I'm
not just selling them on the fact that this will allow me, the poor little
blind man -- not <chuckle> get out of my house but it willl be of
assistance to many other pedestrians by stimulating another sense besides
their sight to inform them that the light has changed. Even drivers may have
their attention drawn by the sounds.
I get annoyed by those who try to put up barriers to universal adaptions
that will make my travelling much more informed. I agree that we want to
inform the public that we are not helpless and can cross roads as blind
people but I certainly don't think we need to do that by excluding any
adaptations such as edge markings on stairs, subway platforms, audible
traffic signals, etc. These are tools that we put into our tool bag to allow
us to move throughout our community more routinely. Think of the big
movement that happened to get cut curbs for wheelchairs, ramps in to
buildings and accessible washrooms. Is it only people in wheelcharis who
have benefited from these upgrades? Of course not. Talk to any mother with
a stroller. The changes we make to allow places to be more accessible in a
way that assists an individual with a vision problem will help many others
in society be safer as well. The majority of those losing their sight in our
society are seniors. If things like wheelchair ramps and audible signalls
can make it possible for them to feel safer and be a continued part of our
community then I think not just the blind are served by these upgrades.
Just my thoughts.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:46 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
Ann,
The difference is that audible signals on the one hand do not add
significant value at standard 4-way stops. True hearing a sound tells you
that the walk sign is on. However, the traffic informs you of that in a
more accurate way without being masked with other sounds which you might use
to mistakenly tell you that it is safe to cross. The fact that some have
said on this list that the signals tell you when to cross proves the point.
On the other hand, the very cue we use to know when it is safe to cross is
being taken away with silent cars. It is also being taken away for many
other persons as well. The very fact that governmental reports now validate
that more accidents are like due to the silence of silent cars demonstrates
the value of vehicles making a noise. Also, the cost to produce this noise
is not significant even compared to ATS devices.
ATS do offer aid at intersections where crossing is atypical such as T
intersections and other than the usual 4-way stop. Again, those signals do
not say it is safe to cross but they do tell us where to cross safely.
The fact that the NFB recognizes the value of some audible signals
demonstrates that wisdom will out. To say that every signal should have an
audible component is unnecessary and it promulgates the myth that without
these signals blind people wouldn't be able to cross a street. I cannot
tell you the large number of times the installation of an audible signal has
been publicized on TV with comments like "now sightless people will know
when it is safe to cross the street" or "now blind people will finally be
able to cross this street".
I think there are basic differences between the use of audible signals and
installing a sound in a silent car.
Mike Hingson
The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
“Speaking with Vision”
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com
for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ann Edie
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 4:00 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
Hi, Jonathan and Everybody,
I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion of audible traffic signals and silent
cars.
On the one hand, the NFB has always been very skeptical of the value of APS,
stating that requiring audible signals implies that blind people are not
capable of traveling safely in the sighted world without extensive
adaptations. On the other hand, the NFB has led in the effort to require
that hybrid and electric cars be modified to produce sound so that blind
people can hear them approaching. If the car manufacturers can be expected
to produce cars which provide for non-visual access to information--the
presence and speed of the vehicle--then why shouldn't traffic signal
manufacturers be equally responsible for producing signals which provide
non-visual access to the information they are designed to provide--that is,
the status of the light cycle at anygiven moment?
Neither the sound produced by cars nor the sound produced by APS in and of
themselves protects pedestrians or ensures their safety, whether the
pedestrians are sighted or blind. The sound produced by both cars and APS
merely provides an additional channel of information about the environment,
in these cases a very important channel of communication for the blind
pedestrian, because the visual channel is not dependable or operational. I
find the information provided to me by APS at a local intersection to be
very helpful. It does not tell me to cross the street; it merely tells me
that the Walk cycle is active. It is still my responsibility to check that
all vehicles which are approaching the intersection are at a stop or are
coming to a stop before I step foot into the street. I take this
responsibility very seriously, because I have witnessed many cars running
this light. But that is not a good reason for disregarding the information
about when the Walk sign is lit. If there were no audible signal at this
intersection, it would be very difficult to tell when that Walk cycle began,
because the traffic flow is intermittant. So if I waited until all was
quiet and then started to cross, I might very well be crossing at a point
when the Walk signal was not lit. And if any accident were to happen under
such circumstances, I might very well be judged to have been negligent for
stepping into the street at the wrong point in the cycle. Besides, I do not
want to become a statistic, no matter how much in the right I might be in my
decision of when to cross a street.
For me, it's all about accessible information. Not all of the information
is necessary all of the time for every individual. But all of it is
absolutely vital to some of the people at some time. Information is only
useful if coupled with a rational brain. But without the information, even
the most powerful and rational of brains cannot make informed decisions and
considered judgements.
Wishing you all safe and happy travels.
Best,
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lyens" <jonathan at lyens.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
> Albert,
>
> Requiring aps implies blind people cannot safely cross streets. This is
> simply untrue, blind people show this everyday and have for many years.
>
> Seems like the issue is quiet cars. In that case it should fall too the
> manufactorer to produce a safe product. When unsafe products are sold,
> they're supposed to be recalled.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 25, 2010, at 6:52 AM, "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> wrote:
>
>> That is exactly the point I was hoping to make Tracey, when I responded
>> to
>> Jule. It is another tool in the arsenal of safe pedestrian travel that
>> is
>> for sure. it would also allow the blind pedestrian specifically to know
>> when
>> to cross with the light rather then against it, and give some sense of
>> calm
>> so as to not be as hyper vigilant about listening for cars no one hears.
>> This audible option in our lives would also allow for some of the
>> positions
>> taken in some of the cane laws as written, I think it was David who
>> shared
>> how he found it effective to extend his white cane in an obvious manner
>> when
>> crossing 6 lanes of traffic. Imagine how effective that technique if
>> necessary, coupled with an audible sign would make crossing a two lane
>> road
>> or any road for that matter. I give you kudos for making that happen in
>> your
>> life and your community. More of us need to take your lead.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:22 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>>
>> Last year, after years of fighting for it, I got an audible signal put
>> in
>> at a T intersection near my home. It is really helpful. No more
>> mistaking a lull in traffic for having the light, or having to wait for
>> someone to come along and help me. It also tells me just how often
>> people
>> drive through the beginning of the walk signal, or turn when they are
>> supposed to stop, since it's an all-stop signal.
>> So of course I still have to be cautious, even when I have the signal.
>> But it is great to know when I actually do have the signal. It's made a
>> real difference in my life.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Marion,
>>> the audible signal is of course for the pedestrians . the vehicles
>>> already have an effective cue to stop and go. The audible sign would at
>>> least be a way to combat those hybrid cars with the silent engines. if
>>> we
>>> were and if all others were able to depend on a reliable audible signal
>>> to
>>> let us know it is ok to cross, coupled with effective pedestrian laws,
>>> the
>>> hybrid cars would only present issues at areas with stop signs and not
>>> at
>>> busy intersections. How did you infer that I suggested the audible
>>> signs
>>> could impact the safe use of a car? The safe driver makes that choice
>>> and
>>> I
>>> have yet to learn about a device that could ensure a drivers safe
>>> operation
>>> of a vehicle.
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:48 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>> Audible traffic signals have absolutely no effect on the safe
>>> operation
>>> of a vehicle. Now, in St. Petersburg, Florida, they have a pretty good
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> They have a pedestrian crossing sign near the trafic signal. When a
>>> pedestrian activates the crosswalk signal, a yellow light flashes
>>> within
>>> the
>>>
>>> sign to alert the driver that a pedestrian is crossing.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now in reaction to the hybrid cars which are environmentally friendly
>>>> and
>>>> very quiet, why are we not mobilizing the forces to require that urban
>>>> planners and departments of roads or transportation or what ever
>>>> department
>>>> it is that regulates crossing signs start using audible crossing signs
>>>> as
>>>> is
>>>> done in many European cities. I hear tell of how the infrastructure is
>>>> to
>>>> old and to costly to work with, yet I would think that Paris and
>>>> London
>>>> are
>>>> much older cities then any of ours and they some how were able to
>>>> bridge
>>>> that gap. Would be another great focus of our community to work
>>>> together
>>>> to
>>>> effect if you ask me.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Jewel S.
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:33 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>
>>>> Here, here!
>>>>
>>>> I have been hit by a car, albeit a very slow moving car, so I was not
>>>> injured very much at all. The car was backing out of a parking spot
>>>> after telling me to go ahead. He didn't look where he was going, and
>>>> his bumper struck me before I knew what was going on. I beat the trunk
>>>> with my cane and shouted at him, trying to scuttle out of the way (not
>>>> easy for me), but he would not stop. I would have fallen if someone
>>>> hadn't run up and caught me and another man knocked on the driver's
>>>> window, the idiot. I told them to get the license plate number, but
>>>> they did not. I was very upset. This was also a quiet car.
>>>>
>>>> The Quiet Car Bill is something I have been watching very closely. It
>>>> is almost passed through to law. It is getting sooo close. When it
>>>> does pass, the government will be required to do a survery and figure
>>>> out a way for quiet cars to produce the sound needed by pedestrians.
>>>>
>>>> I am very sorry about the loss of your guide dog, friend, and the
>>>> injury of your other friend. Your story is one of the many very real
>>>> reasons why the White Cane Laws were ut in place in the first place,
>>>> to save lives.
>>>>
>>>> How many lives must be taken before the laws are enforced?
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>>
>>>> On 3/24/10, Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org> wrote:
>>>>> Here here!
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracy,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm so sorry! I didn't know that had happened to you. It must have
>>>>> been
>>>>> awful for a long, long time after the fact. And I'm sure whatever
>>>> recourse
>>>>> you received was not worth the loss. I'm glad you're well and still
>>>> living
>>>>> your life.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I am glad the white cane laws and pedestrian laws underlying
>>>>> them
>>>>> do
>>>>> give me some added rights and protections. Greater awareness and
>>>>> greater
>>>>> enforcement does and will give us better odds of traveling safely
>>>>> through
>>>>> our daily lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> There will still be those people who disengage brain before turning
>>>>> key,
>>>> but
>>>>> the more drivers who are aware of the law, of their responsibilities
>>>>> as
>>>>> drivers, and of the consequences of their not taking their
>>>> responsibilities
>>>>> seriously when they're behind the wheel, the better off we'll all be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:23 AM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>>
>>>>> Could we possibly get back to discussing better enforcement of White
>>>>> Cane
>>>>> laws, and drop all the sniping? Or is it the concensus that the
>>>>> White
>>>>> Cane laws are outmoded, and we should just let them drop and ignore
>>>>> them?
>>>>> I'm not asking for someone else to be responsible for my safety, but
>>>>> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> asking that the drivers take their share of responsibility. They are
>>>>> the
>>>>> ones in charge of the vehicle that is a lot faster and heavier than I
>>>>> am.
>>>>> I am especially concerned with new quieter cars becoming more common.
>>>>> I've lost count of the times my dog has stopped short, then I've
>>>>> heard
>>>>> the
>>>>> car whizzing by in front of us.
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally know 3 people who've been hit. One was crossing with
>>>>> the
>>>>> light when a bus turned on top of her, and she was killed. One was
>>>>> crossing a quiet street, when some old fool came speeding around a
>>>>> blind
>>>>> corner and hit her. Now she has to use a wheelchair. And one was
>>>>> me,
>>>>> trying to cross a street to get home during an ice storm. There
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> enough traffic, and there wasn't anyone around to ask, and I probably
>>>>> misjudged the traffic light. My dog was killed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Two of these accidents could have been avoided, if the driver were
>>>>> paying
>>>>> propper attention. We have laws on the books that say they should be
>>>>> particularly careful when a blind pedestrian is in the street. I'd
>>>>> like
>>>>> to see greater awareness of those laws. It doesn't seem so much to
>>>>> ask,
>>>>> to save a life.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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