[nagdu] ADA Correction
Jewel S.
herekittykat2 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 26 20:58:55 UTC 2010
How about the people who don't want them just...ignore them? You don't
have to pay attention to them. But that doesn't mean other people
can't use them. I like the audibles that you don't have to press the
button for, because I can use the audible as a landmark and I don't
have to search for the button.
Just a though,
Jewel
On 3/26/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> This is a correction to my earlier message concerning the ADA. I said
> Section IV when it should have been Title V. There is a provision that
> clearly states that if a disabled individual deems an accommodation to be
> inappropriate or unnecessary he/she has the right to refuse such
> accommodations. What this would mean is that all audible traffic signals
> would be required to be user-activated allowing those who wish to use them
> to do so while respecting the rights of those who find them unnecessary.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>
>
> Hello Gary and everyone,
>
> Provided they're not shoved down the throats of those who choose not to
> use them as specified in Section IV of the ADA. One provision of that
> section clearly states that a disabled individual has the ability to refuse
> an accommodation they deem to be unnecessary. If audible traffic signals are
> installed at intersections they must permit one to disable them should they
> choose not to use them. This is in compliance with the above section in the
> ADA. So why spend large sums of money on installing something very few
> people would use. Our municipalities have better things to do with public
> monies than spending it on these things.I'd rather see such funds spent on
> improving access to quality orientation and adjustment training rather than
> APS any day. Blind individuals would not only receive quality travel
> training, but they would learn many other valuable blindness skills as well.
> Please keep the big picture in focus.
>
> Peter Donahue
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 9:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>
>
>
>
> Hello:
>
> Of course I agree with the fact that having silent cars create noise and
> audible traffic signals are not the same issue.
>
> First, let me state that I am totally for the laws being moved forward to
> create sounds in electric silent cars. However, I think that audible traffic
> signals are a great assistance to all people. It is great to say that at a
> four way stop we don't need audible signals but I live in a city where there
> are probably over a 100 audible signals and I certainly believe that they
> tmake getting around the city much easier especially considering I have to
> often cross six lane roads. Of course I don't blindly start walking (pardon
> the pun) once I hear the signal but as someone stated earlier, I then know
> that the sign says walk. Now it is up to me to use my other senses to be
> sure that the intersection is truly safe before I proceed.
>
> Secondly, when I make my request for audible signals to the city staff, I'm
> not just selling them on the fact that this will allow me, the poor little
> blind man -- not <chuckle> get out of my house but it willl be of
> assistance to many other pedestrians by stimulating another sense besides
> their sight to inform them that the light has changed. Even drivers may have
> their attention drawn by the sounds.
>
> I get annoyed by those who try to put up barriers to universal adaptions
> that will make my travelling much more informed. I agree that we want to
> inform the public that we are not helpless and can cross roads as blind
> people but I certainly don't think we need to do that by excluding any
> adaptations such as edge markings on stairs, subway platforms, audible
> traffic signals, etc. These are tools that we put into our tool bag to allow
> us to move throughout our community more routinely. Think of the big
> movement that happened to get cut curbs for wheelchairs, ramps in to
> buildings and accessible washrooms. Is it only people in wheelcharis who
> have benefited from these upgrades? Of course not. Talk to any mother with
> a stroller. The changes we make to allow places to be more accessible in a
> way that assists an individual with a vision problem will help many others
> in society be safer as well. The majority of those losing their sight in our
> society are seniors. If things like wheelchair ramps and audible signalls
> can make it possible for them to feel safer and be a continued part of our
> community then I think not just the blind are served by these upgrades.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:46 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>
> Ann,
>
> The difference is that audible signals on the one hand do not add
> significant value at standard 4-way stops. True hearing a sound tells you
> that the walk sign is on. However, the traffic informs you of that in a
> more accurate way without being masked with other sounds which you might use
> to mistakenly tell you that it is safe to cross. The fact that some have
> said on this list that the signals tell you when to cross proves the point.
>
> On the other hand, the very cue we use to know when it is safe to cross is
> being taken away with silent cars. It is also being taken away for many
> other persons as well. The very fact that governmental reports now validate
> that more accidents are like due to the silence of silent cars demonstrates
> the value of vehicles making a noise. Also, the cost to produce this noise
> is not significant even compared to ATS devices.
>
> ATS do offer aid at intersections where crossing is atypical such as T
> intersections and other than the usual 4-way stop. Again, those signals do
> not say it is safe to cross but they do tell us where to cross safely.
>
> The fact that the NFB recognizes the value of some audible signals
> demonstrates that wisdom will out. To say that every signal should have an
> audible component is unnecessary and it promulgates the myth that without
> these signals blind people wouldn't be able to cross a street. I cannot
> tell you the large number of times the installation of an audible signal has
> been publicized on TV with comments like "now sightless people will know
> when it is safe to cross the street" or "now blind people will finally be
> able to cross this street".
>
> I think there are basic differences between the use of audible signals and
> installing a sound in a silent car.
>
>
> Mike Hingson
>
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 4:00 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>
> Hi, Jonathan and Everybody,
>
> I'm a bit puzzled by this discussion of audible traffic signals and silent
> cars.
>
> On the one hand, the NFB has always been very skeptical of the value of APS,
>
> stating that requiring audible signals implies that blind people are not
> capable of traveling safely in the sighted world without extensive
> adaptations. On the other hand, the NFB has led in the effort to require
> that hybrid and electric cars be modified to produce sound so that blind
> people can hear them approaching. If the car manufacturers can be expected
> to produce cars which provide for non-visual access to information--the
> presence and speed of the vehicle--then why shouldn't traffic signal
> manufacturers be equally responsible for producing signals which provide
> non-visual access to the information they are designed to provide--that is,
> the status of the light cycle at anygiven moment?
>
> Neither the sound produced by cars nor the sound produced by APS in and of
> themselves protects pedestrians or ensures their safety, whether the
> pedestrians are sighted or blind. The sound produced by both cars and APS
> merely provides an additional channel of information about the environment,
> in these cases a very important channel of communication for the blind
> pedestrian, because the visual channel is not dependable or operational. I
> find the information provided to me by APS at a local intersection to be
> very helpful. It does not tell me to cross the street; it merely tells me
> that the Walk cycle is active. It is still my responsibility to check that
> all vehicles which are approaching the intersection are at a stop or are
> coming to a stop before I step foot into the street. I take this
> responsibility very seriously, because I have witnessed many cars running
> this light. But that is not a good reason for disregarding the information
> about when the Walk sign is lit. If there were no audible signal at this
> intersection, it would be very difficult to tell when that Walk cycle began,
>
> because the traffic flow is intermittant. So if I waited until all was
> quiet and then started to cross, I might very well be crossing at a point
> when the Walk signal was not lit. And if any accident were to happen under
> such circumstances, I might very well be judged to have been negligent for
> stepping into the street at the wrong point in the cycle. Besides, I do not
>
> want to become a statistic, no matter how much in the right I might be in my
>
> decision of when to cross a street.
>
> For me, it's all about accessible information. Not all of the information
> is necessary all of the time for every individual. But all of it is
> absolutely vital to some of the people at some time. Information is only
> useful if coupled with a rational brain. But without the information, even
> the most powerful and rational of brains cannot make informed decisions and
> considered judgements.
>
> Wishing you all safe and happy travels.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Lyens" <jonathan at lyens.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>
>
>> Albert,
>>
>> Requiring aps implies blind people cannot safely cross streets. This is
>> simply untrue, blind people show this everyday and have for many years.
>>
>> Seems like the issue is quiet cars. In that case it should fall too the
>> manufactorer to produce a safe product. When unsafe products are sold,
>> they're supposed to be recalled.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 25, 2010, at 6:52 AM, "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That is exactly the point I was hoping to make Tracey, when I responded
>>> to
>>> Jule. It is another tool in the arsenal of safe pedestrian travel that
>>> is
>>> for sure. it would also allow the blind pedestrian specifically to know
>>> when
>>> to cross with the light rather then against it, and give some sense of
>>> calm
>>> so as to not be as hyper vigilant about listening for cars no one hears.
>>> This audible option in our lives would also allow for some of the
>>> positions
>>> taken in some of the cane laws as written, I think it was David who
>>> shared
>>> how he found it effective to extend his white cane in an obvious manner
>>> when
>>> crossing 6 lanes of traffic. Imagine how effective that technique if
>>> necessary, coupled with an audible sign would make crossing a two lane
>>> road
>>> or any road for that matter. I give you kudos for making that happen in
>>> your
>>> life and your community. More of us need to take your lead.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:22 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>>>
>>> Last year, after years of fighting for it, I got an audible signal put
>>> in
>>> at a T intersection near my home. It is really helpful. No more
>>> mistaking a lull in traffic for having the light, or having to wait for
>>> someone to come along and help me. It also tells me just how often
>>> people
>>> drive through the beginning of the walk signal, or turn when they are
>>> supposed to stop, since it's an all-stop signal.
>>> So of course I still have to be cautious, even when I have the signal.
>>> But it is great to know when I actually do have the signal. It's made a
>>> real difference in my life.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>>> Marion,
>>>> the audible signal is of course for the pedestrians . the vehicles
>>>> already have an effective cue to stop and go. The audible sign would at
>>>> least be a way to combat those hybrid cars with the silent engines. if
>>>> we
>>>> were and if all others were able to depend on a reliable audible signal
>
>>>> to
>>>> let us know it is ok to cross, coupled with effective pedestrian laws,
>>>> the
>>>> hybrid cars would only present issues at areas with stop signs and not
>>>> at
>>>> busy intersections. How did you infer that I suggested the audible
>>>> signs
>>>> could impact the safe use of a car? The safe driver makes that choice
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> have yet to learn about a device that could ensure a drivers safe
>>>> operation
>>>> of a vehicle.
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:48 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Audible Traffic Signals
>>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>> Audible traffic signals have absolutely no effect on the safe
>>>> operation
>>>> of a vehicle. Now, in St. Petersburg, Florida, they have a pretty good
>>>> idea.
>>>>
>>>> They have a pedestrian crossing sign near the trafic signal. When a
>>>> pedestrian activates the crosswalk signal, a yellow light flashes
>>>> within
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> sign to alert the driver that a pedestrian is crossing.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now in reaction to the hybrid cars which are environmentally friendly
>>>>> and
>>>>> very quiet, why are we not mobilizing the forces to require that urban
>>>>> planners and departments of roads or transportation or what ever
>>>>> department
>>>>> it is that regulates crossing signs start using audible crossing signs
>>>>> as
>>>>> is
>>>>> done in many European cities. I hear tell of how the infrastructure is
>>>>> to
>>>>> old and to costly to work with, yet I would think that Paris and
>>>>> London
>>>>> are
>>>>> much older cities then any of ours and they some how were able to
>>>>> bridge
>>>>> that gap. Would be another great focus of our community to work
>>>>> together
>>>>> to
>>>>> effect if you ask me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Jewel S.
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:33 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>>
>>>>> Here, here!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been hit by a car, albeit a very slow moving car, so I was not
>>>>> injured very much at all. The car was backing out of a parking spot
>>>>> after telling me to go ahead. He didn't look where he was going, and
>>>>> his bumper struck me before I knew what was going on. I beat the trunk
>>>>> with my cane and shouted at him, trying to scuttle out of the way (not
>>>>> easy for me), but he would not stop. I would have fallen if someone
>>>>> hadn't run up and caught me and another man knocked on the driver's
>>>>> window, the idiot. I told them to get the license plate number, but
>>>>> they did not. I was very upset. This was also a quiet car.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Quiet Car Bill is something I have been watching very closely. It
>>>>> is almost passed through to law. It is getting sooo close. When it
>>>>> does pass, the government will be required to do a survery and figure
>>>>> out a way for quiet cars to produce the sound needed by pedestrians.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry about the loss of your guide dog, friend, and the
>>>>> injury of your other friend. Your story is one of the many very real
>>>>> reasons why the White Cane Laws were ut in place in the first place,
>>>>> to save lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many lives must be taken before the laws are enforced?
>>>>> ~Jewel
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/24/10, Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Here here!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:07 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tracy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm so sorry! I didn't know that had happened to you. It must have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> awful for a long, long time after the fact. And I'm sure whatever
>>>>> recourse
>>>>>> you received was not worth the loss. I'm glad you're well and still
>>>>> living
>>>>>> your life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I am glad the white cane laws and pedestrian laws underlying
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> give me some added rights and protections. Greater awareness and
>>>>>> greater
>>>>>> enforcement does and will give us better odds of traveling safely
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> our daily lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There will still be those people who disengage brain before turning
>>>>>> key,
>>>>> but
>>>>>> the more drivers who are aware of the law, of their responsibilities
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> drivers, and of the consequences of their not taking their
>>>>> responsibilities
>>>>>> seriously when they're behind the wheel, the better off we'll all be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:23 AM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] White Cane laws
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could we possibly get back to discussing better enforcement of White
>>>>>> Cane
>>>>>> laws, and drop all the sniping? Or is it the concensus that the
>>>>>> White
>>>>>> Cane laws are outmoded, and we should just let them drop and ignore
>>>>>> them?
>>>>>> I'm not asking for someone else to be responsible for my safety, but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> asking that the drivers take their share of responsibility. They are
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ones in charge of the vehicle that is a lot faster and heavier than I
>>>>>> am.
>>>>>> I am especially concerned with new quieter cars becoming more common.
>>>>>> I've lost count of the times my dog has stopped short, then I've
>>>>>> heard
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> car whizzing by in front of us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally know 3 people who've been hit. One was crossing with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> light when a bus turned on top of her, and she was killed. One was
>>>>>> crossing a quiet street, when some old fool came speeding around a
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> corner and hit her. Now she has to use a wheelchair. And one was
>>>>>> me,
>>>>>> trying to cross a street to get home during an ice storm. There
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> enough traffic, and there wasn't anyone around to ask, and I probably
>>>>>> misjudged the traffic light. My dog was killed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two of these accidents could have been avoided, if the driver were
>>>>>> paying
>>>>>> propper attention. We have laws on the books that say they should be
>>>>>> particularly careful when a blind pedestrian is in the street. I'd
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> to see greater awareness of those laws. It doesn't seem so much to
>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>> to save a life.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> .net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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