[nagdu] NFB and Airlines

Thu Nov 4 16:31:03 UTC 2010

Steve,

Thanks!  And wow! /smile/  History lessons are always very instructive for
me, and super helpful in providing me context for my own expectations and
experience as a more newbie blind.  Well, in a way.  I knew about the NFB
and that it was doing things and that things were happening during the
extended period that I functioned as a legally sighted person aware that she
would at some unspecified point in the future be legally and eventually
totally blind.  Those of you who had to get arrested just to make a minor
gain while I was still driving around and working on a print-reading based
career were individually and collectively fighting hard to create a world in
which I would soon cheerfully expect to be treated like an equal who happens
to need a white cane and some way to read that doesn't involve print on
paper...  And to be royally cheesed off when my expectations are not met!
While I have the extreme pleasure of meeting young people who happen to be
blind -- or deafblind or blind and you name it -- who are well-educated,
self-confident, itinerate up and comers, often kicking their fully-abled
peers' ... well, you know what I'm saying.

Thanks to all the discussion of the issues on this list, I will be much more
knowledgeable and prepared next time I fly with my poodle guide.  Just in
case!  Not having a strategy in place for that one security hassle in
Houston, I was completely floored and did not come up with an effective way
to communicate and educate -- or complain to someone in charge.  My bad!  I
got educated by the experience, though, so can hope I do better next time!

Thanks again for the excellent information.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:12 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] NFB and Airlines

Tami,

The long struggle we have had with the airlines has been very frustrating.
As has been mentioned, we've had significant problems over the past 30 or
more 
years.  I was one who was arrested for not moving from an exit row back in
the 80's, and while I feel I was right, I am frustrated that my actions did
not lead 
to more changes.  However, the NFB was very active in assisting a number of
us in the 1980's and we came very close to getting some real protection 
passed through Congress.  Unfortunately, terrorism and the experiences in
most recent years has made it more difficult to take a legal approach with
the 
airlines.  However, there are some protections in law that can still help
us.  Often, the problems we encounter with airlines are not truly the result
of airline 
policies but are rather poor implementations of policy by specific staff.
While it is not likely, in my opinion, that we can do much in terms of
getting new laws 
passed in the current climate, and while individuals may have less of a
chance of success than we did back in the 1980's by refusing to obey
policies that 
were not supported by law, resisting policies and complaining through
various complaint mechanisms can help.  While airlines tend to have a good
deal of 
power now because of laws related to anti-terrorism, they also have a fairly
poor image with their customers and are sometimes responsive to complaints.

While you are right that there is no single way to bring about change now,
resisting or complaining about policies that you feel are not fair can help.
It also 
helps to be knowledgeable about the law.  While the ADA may have some
impact, there are specific laws that govern airline travel.  Never mind the
fact 
that we shouldn't have to deal with any of this, the fact is that we do,
fair or not.  While the kinds of changes we may once have hoped for are not
likely to 
happen quickly, we do not have to sit back and take whatever is thrown at
us, either.  We are also hurt by the fact that there are blind people out
there 
who feel if they are not able to do a given thing then nobody can.  That is
also an unfortunate fact of life,  but that isn't anything new.  Still, it
makes sense 
for us to evaluate our own abilities honestly as well.  The idea here is not
that one size fits all, it is that each of us has different abilities and
challenges and 
may need different levels of assistance.  This can actually make life
confusing for airline personnel, but we need to keep working with them and
with each 
other.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:41:23 -0700, Tamara Smith-Kinney wrote:

>Well...  I do see where you're coming from.  However, it is astonishing how
>much attitudes change when the consequences of the actions based on the bad
>attitudes are real and immediate and have direct connection to the bad
>behavior...  Operant conditing 101, really.  Only with humans, you have to
>sometimes apply harsh and punitive negative reinforcement just to get their
>attention.

>In other words, so long as we let the airlines and any other entity guilty
>of gross mistreatment of the disabled or any other minority -- and thus
>perceived as powerless group -- get away with it, they will continue with
>their bad behavior because they will not only get away with it but be
>rewarded by it.

>What can we as individuals do?  Not a g*d* freakin' thing.  Because we as
>individuals can almost (but not quite) afford the attorney fees.  Or the
>time.  Or the energy.  Or the real financial burden from both of those.

>So...  I'm with Cathryn.  So long as we and the NFB let these people -- and
>others -- get away with their bad behavior, they will continue to pratice
>it.

>If I had a practical solution, I would offer it.  More money and more
>personal advocacy and attorneys ready to leap to deal with individual
>incidents would be great...  It's coming up with that kind of money and
that
>kind of manpower that stumps me.  I do what I can, and that currently ain't
>much.  Maybe someday, for me, but for now I just have to deal with what I
>can (me, then the Oregon Commission for Blind) and spout off opinions.
>/smile/

>Tami Smith-Kinney

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>Of Cindy Ray
>Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 5:16 PM
>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] NFB and Airlines

>Cathryn, I think it is pretty unfair to say that the airlines will do
>whatever the NFB and others will let them get away with. As Peter has
>stated, this sort of thing has been going on for at least 30 years. People
>have been arrested for standing up for their rights on planes. Others have
>managed to garner bad will of other passengers. NFB has had cases; we once
>demonstrated at the FAA during a convention. Just this week a suit has been
>filed against United concerning the inaccessibility of the kiosks (sp), and
>there are plenty of instances where members have been able to get airlines
>to admit to the fact there are really no rules. I think this is something
>that will continue as long as the attitudes exist that are. You can pass
>laws but attitudes take time, and more time than we mostly have patience
>with, but I think it some unfair to say what you have said here unless I am
>truly missing something. 

>CL

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