[nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs

[Tamara Smith-Kinney]

Yup.  In my opinion and experience (which is worth all the paper it's
printed on), that is what's going on.  They're like an overprotected child
who goes off to college, gets a taste of freedom and goes nuts getting all
that delayed teenage wildness out at once.  /smile/

I've heard that non-U.S. programs pretty much universally teach off-leash
obedience and safety from puppyhood on.  I could be wrong there, but that
seems to be the case.  I've been getting hints that some U.S. programs, at
least, are loosening up on the subject, but I'm not aware of any actual
policy changes.  A few years back, when I first started calling around to
guide dog programs to check out that scene, I always asked about that and
was always pretty shocked by how shocked the questionee seemed to have that
anyone would even think of such a thing.  In one case, their end of the
conversation went from warm and courteous to outright hostile in a blink.
There were even strong hints that, while I was welcome to apply, there was
no way they were ever letting me near one of their precious dogs.  The
earlier invitation to visit the campus seemed to be withdrawn, as well.  I
decided to drop the matter and end the conversation since I was suddenly not
interested in that program anyway.  /smile/  I reviewed the list of
questions I have written out before hand so I could go according to script,
and did not see how the question could possibly be taken as a direct threat
to all guide dogs everywhere as opposed to a question about policy, but
there it was.

Okay, I confess.  I'm a grown up.  I did wait a few weeks and called again
to talk to a different person.  The response to the question was not so
extreme, but there was no doubting that the mere fact that would even think
of it to ask made me highly suspect and almost certainly unqualified to be a
guide dog user.  While I paused, she treated me to an extened explanation of
the reasons behind that policy.  Apparently, blind people can't manage dogs
or make simple decisions without causing catastrophe.  Glad somebody clued
me in there.  /evil grin/

I remember these conversations because I had not yet had much exposure to
either of those conversational styles, so I ended up wasting some of my
precious time trying to establish -- or re-establish -- some sort of
framework for a dialogue by which I could get the decision-making
information I had called to acquire.  These days, I recognize it for what it
is and just sort of bow out of the conversation so I can go do something
useful.  I do wonder, though, if the people who talk and act that way have
any clue what they're communicating about themselves and their program
(agency, whatever).  Honestly, one of the programs seemed to be going quite
a ways -- through at least 3 individuals -- to convince me that their dogs
are poorly trained, undisciplined beasts so inherently stupid that they will
find a way to die if not kept under absolute control every second or every
day.  I know that is not the case and know many people with great dogs from
that same program.  That's just what I got out of the communications.

Anyway, blah blah.  Off-leash training and policy-based strictures on where
and how I can manage the leisure part of my dog's life are important enough
to me -- and my own lifestyle -- that I will strongly consider that issue in
choosing a program in future vs. owner-training again.  Owner-training is my
preference, but certain conditions do have to be in place.  If it's more
advantageous to go through a program for a trained dog, then I'll do that.
Since ownership is also a key issue, I suppose I won't have to worry about
whether I'm allowed to do off leash training with my own dog once I get
home.  Whew!  /smile/  Being cognizant of how much other people have put
into that dog so that I could become its handler (if that becomes a
reality), I wll probably be even more cautious than I have been with my own
poodle thing.  Then again, my poodle thing was raised by her very large pack
with room to run from birth until just shy her 7-month birthday, so that
gave me way lots of freedom with her in the off leash dog park matter.  The
trade off came from spending lots and lots of time and energy civilizing a
free-range poodle for apartment and city life so that I could take her out
to civilize her enough to take her into public as a guide dog with etiquette
and stuff.  /grin/

Even when you're convinced that this is impossible!  Ain't gonna happen.
I'm just stubborn and goal-oriented enough that I kept on until she proved
for absolute and sure that there was not point...  Mommy's litte rebel
envelope-pusher is now a way cool guide dog, exercise assistant, with at
least four separate sets of manners she almost doesn't need to be reminded
of...  And that's when she's on the job!  My job now is so easy, I can
barely cope.  "Mitzi. Indoor manners."  Mitzi, restaurant manners!"  Okay.
She makes an independent distinction between, say, Carl's Jr. and Sherri's
(kind of Denny's level) and our schnooty waterin-holes.

Come to think of it, our two dogs just at home have at least 4 separate sets
of manners, depending on where/what/who for meal times.  We have a small
kitchen table, a big formal Dining table, the couch with trays for informal
dinners in front of the TV, the couch without trays for dessert.  Sometimes,
the couch without trays for pizza dinners...  The formal dining table can be
for special family meals, or for formal company.  There's a more informal
scenario with the small "nook" table if there's just us, or if the company
stuck around for informal meals.

We've only once done super-informal company on the couch.  Yikes!  So we've
been working on it.

Shutting up now.  /grin/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:48 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs

I sometimes wonder if our dogs just aren't used to feedom and don't know
what to do with it once they get it, I mean your comment about your Mom's
dog coming and yours not.
I've had that experience too, pet dogs coming as nice as you please and my
dogs wandering.

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lora
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 8:56 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs

Just so you guys know he has only got on the table twice in the six months I
have had him. I want to give him good smelly treats but he is on a limited
diet to test for food allergies. He doesn't want to play fetch. When we go
outside all he wants to do is smell the ground. My mom's dog comes amazingly
but mine doesn't. I've tried food rewards but they don't seeem to help any.

On 11/26/10, Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Dan and Lora,
>
> Sometimes it's the orthodoxy that is ill-advised.  /evil grin/  I'm a 
> big proponent of freedom to run play in wide open spaces.  Apparently, 
> most if not all U.S. guide dog programs are against that sort of 
> thing.  At least they used to be; I hear they're getting less uptight
about it lately.
>
> The key is to find a place where your dog will be as safe as possible 
> to run and play and even socialize with other dogs.  Especially at 
> first, because reliable recall and boundaries take time to learn.  
> Also, it seems that reliability is a matter of maturity, so you need 
> to maintain protections for a wild and crazy dog until at least the 
> age of 5.  /smile/  Well, the level of total reliability I'm referring 
> to there means that the dog is self-disciplined and obedient enough to 
> walk with its owner off-leash around a city neighborhood without 
> getting into trouble or endangering itself or others.  Used to be, 
> Portlanders would take their well-trained, well-mannered dogs all over 
> the place that way -- farmer's markets, street fairs, community 
> picnics, you name it.  Then people started taking their untrained, 
> ill-mannered scurvy curs to those venues, so now those of us who have 
> taken the time to train our dogs have to keep them on leash even 
> though the law still says on leash or under control.  Oh, well!  Mine 
> is just now mature and reliable enough for me to consider wandering 
> around a farmer's market or such with her off leash, and I would be 
> using her as a guide anyway. Still!  I would have loved an opportunity 
> to see all that patience and perserverance come into play, just a time or
two.  I'm silly that way, I guess.
>
> So the 5-year maturity limit is only if you really want to have a dog 
> that is totally reliable off-leash in unfenced areas.  I do, so I've 
> been working with Mitzi poodle on that since January of '07...  While 
> I still limit potential risks when we're doing our thing with no 
> physical connection between us, she's pretty awesome and I don't worry 
> much these days.  Also, she truly does jingle guide and squeak guide 
> with her ball, so it's great for just walking around in the great 
> outdoors with her.  /smile/
>
> I put bells on her collar so I know where she is, and I always 
> reinforce recall and minding boundaries.  Which I can now set on the 
> fly, so that's cool.  I have no need to take her on a sidewalk near 
> traffic, and would not choose to do so.  However, it is nice to know 
> that if for whatever strange reason I have a need for her to be 
> off-leash, she would be fine.  I did actually manage to lose my leash 
> at the park a couple of years back and was astonished at how well she 
> did coming home without it.  It was a pretty safe walk, except for a 
> couple of passages, but she was awfully darn good, especially considering
her age and general level of overall snottiness.
> Love her, but she is Mitzi poodle, after all.  /grin/
>
> Incorporating interactive play into your off-leash time also does wonders.
> You can do a lot of reinforcing your training without actually doing 
> any training.  And you can both get lots of exercise while having fun
together.
> You can praise a behavior your dog makes in the course of play ("Good 
> bring it!), then reward the dog by throwing (or kicking) the 
> ball,which is the reward.  It's a fun way to have a dog that listens 
> and responds well during off leash romps.
>
> With my ulta high-energy wild and crazy curly girl, I have done my 
> best to follow a couple of hard and fast rules for myself:
>
> 	1.  Always reward recall.  Always!
> 	2.  Never give a command you know your dog will not obey.
>
> Oh, and when it comes to teaching your dog to pay attention to you 
> when it counts...  Smelly treats!  If they're much too expensive and 
> you can't stand yourself when you have a pocket full of them, then 
> you're probably on the right track.  /lol/  Early on, especially, 
> using rank bribery to start conditioning obedience is definitely the 
> way to go.  Dogs are scent-oriented, so a smelly treat will get the 
> dog's attention and bring it to you, even when said dog was planning 
> to run by you demonstrating that it has no intention of coming to you 
> just because you called it.  I speak from experience there.  /grin/  
> It's a way to condition the dog to come whether it wants to be 
> conditioned or not.  /lol/  I could still see Mitzi well enough on sunny
days to catch her expression when that start kicking in.
> She was so mad!  But she couldn't help herself because, well, you know...
> Smelly treats are smelly treats.  Yum!
>
> Don't know if any of that is helpful in your situation.  It was fun to 
> suddenly find myself thinking back through all the fun (and sometimes 
> scary) times with my curly girl, seeing those sunny days in the park 
> by my old apartment with far more clarity than I probably really did....
>
> Now, I need to remember how to walk around the house I live in on this 
> dank and dreary winter's night... /lol/
>
> Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Dan Weiner
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:39 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Well, just my opinion.
> First of all, with outside do you mean a fenced-in area or an open 
> space with no borders?
> If it's fenced-in, then really no harm done and let him run around and 
> get rid of pent up energy.
> If it's totally open, I would say that letting her off lead is
ill-advised.
> Perhaps you could buy a flexi-lead to give your dog more space to roam 
> without getting away.
> I have a fifteen foot nylon leash I bought about 15 years ago, one 
> foot per year--lol.
> The problem is that your dog can get tangled up in it.
> So, fenced-in area, all right, open area, not so hot--smile.
> Indoors, well, and this is just a general comment, I find that people 
> are really uptight about everything their dogs do. How can your dog 
> learn what's expected without freedom in the house. Besides, keeping 
> him/her on leash if it's your home will make you a nervous wreck and 
> start feeling like a burden.
> Even the best guide dogs I've seen will eventually do something silly 
> in the house, so don't sweat the little stuff.
>
> Perhaps unorthodox but my two cent worth anyway.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 1:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Um, I wouldn't let him outside off leash myself. As for inside, are 
> you doing obedience? Often the dogs really need that for a while 
> before you can get what you are looking for. I do obedience on leash 
> sometimes; then as a final exercise I do it off leash to see if he'll do
it.
>
> CL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lora" <blindhistory at gmail.com>
> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:27 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
>
> After about six months I have been trying to give my guide dog freedom 
> outside and inside. He still gets into trouble mostly outside. He 
> won't listen off leash. Any suggestions?
> --
> Lora
>
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--
Lora

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