[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: American Legion Auxiliary RaisingFundsforServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran

Tue Oct 5 19:20:35 UTC 2010

Exactly Tami. 
Just look at all the cases where something has been developed for a
user, only to have the user say "It wasn't what I wanted?" 
Sound readiness reviews and transitions can midigate a bunch of that,
though often the end user confuses a demo version with the full version
in terms of functionality. And, temming just to make sure everybody is
on the same page with terminology and expectations is very involved. 
Does this school use any systems engineering processes to make sure the
user gets what he/she expected? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 1:11 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: American Legion Auxiliary
RaisingFundsforServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran

When you speak of software development, do you mean when you spend a
couple
of years of your life lovingly developing and building a custom package,
then suddenly have budget cuts and a change of management just when it's
ready to go into production so that you're left hanging with feelings of
having been deprived of great personal validation but can still comfort
yourself with the fact that at least you got paid a lot?  /grin/

Training a guide dog from puppy to career guide is not so different from
the
software development process...  And there's always the chance that the
time
and effort and planning and adapting and dealing with personalities will
leave you with a very nice pet but no guide dog...  This is true for the
guide dog programs, as well, over the 2 years it takes them to turn a
litter
of promising pups into graduation ready guides.  When you're considering
owner-training and you look into the programs' statistics of success,
the
numbers are quite shocking.  They have a large basket with many eggs, so
they can afford some breakage along the way.  When you have a tiny
basket
with only one egg in it, you're just screwed if your egg breaks.  Scary.

i

The fact that they use positive training throughout probably would make
it
easier for them to adjust a dog's training for another client with
similar
needs, though.  Even back in my tender youth, when using positive
reinforcement was a highly suspicious -- even subversive -- thing to do,
I
stuck with it and developed techniques in training that relied on
reward-based motivation for my animals -- or even co-workers and clients
--
because of the huge benefits of doing things that way.  One of them
being
that when you've trained your horse (dog, cat, end-user, whatever) to
perform one task or set of tasks while building a strong, rewarding
relationship, then adding new stuff is just easy and fun.  Click and
treat!
Or just praise and treat, if you forgot your clicker.  If your student
turned partner tries something that doesn't work, just don't reward it,
and
there you go.  Reward what does work instead!  Problem solved.

So, switching back to the original software development metaphor, you
don't
have to rewrite the code or scrap the project and start over.  You just
add
in new modules on the fly.  Better yet, the new modules now write
themselves, because you're dealing with organic intelligence which is
very
adaptable.  You don't have to scrap everything and start over on a new
platform just because some fool executive made a bad purchasing decision
that will end up costing the company obsene amounts of wasted money.
/smile/

Then again, software development pays better, and if you're in the right
position, that stupid purchasing decision will continue to increase your
earnings and experience, so there's that.  /grin/

As for how the organization handles the financial end of things if the
consumer doesn't take the dog in the end -- or if the dog doesn't work
out
for whatever reason -- I don't have enough experience to make an
educated
guess about the nitty gritty there.  If the creators of that program
have
any business sense at all, they will have dealt with those contingencies
in
the planning process and will have it covered in their contract with the
consumer.  One would think they would also factor in funding sources
like
the Lions' Club, since their primary consumers are unlikely to be in a
position to fork over 25 grand out of their spare change.  /smile/

Just as in developing a custom software package, you spend a whole lot
of
time on planning the end product and the budget and timelines and
clarifying
who is responsible for which components of the project and what will
happen
if one party doesn't deliver on time, etc., etc.  You want to have all
of
that hammered out and nailed down before you ever sit down to type a
line or
gzillion of code.  Even if the consumer/client is your employer, the
project
director needs to have those things work out in advance.  They don't
always,
then lots and lots of money gets wasted.  /smile/ This makes me crazy,
even
when a chunk of the money is being wasted on me, so I like projects
where I
can be my own planner or at least be an integral part of the planning
process.  This is not always possible over the course of a career, but
once
you get to that point, it is very nice.  So long as you're not the one
who
screw up, which I really work very hard not to be.  Whew!

Okay, I got off guide dogs there...  But the metaphor is in many ways an
apt
one.  Except that, as you say, you're dealing with living beings -- both
the
consumer and the dog -- so anything can happen.  Nice, sensible,
reliable
Boolean logic does not apply.  /grin/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:50 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: American Legion Auxiliary Raising
FundsforServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran
number
I'd still like to know how they'd handle a forced "I can't get a dog
now" v. a "I don't want a dog now" What if illness drove the latter? 
I do like that the dog goes from raiser to handler. 
Two years though is a long time when it comes to living beings. The
customization bit at first sounds attractive, but then I'm not so sure. 
Anybody else thinking of software development now?

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 12:23 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] American Legion Auxiliary Raising Funds
forServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran

Hm...  A program like that would have to have a plan for such
contingencies...  It would be interesting to find out.  I would think it
would be in their best interest to match the dog with another consumer,
if
possible...

As for serious illness...  If the dogs are cross-trained as service
dogs, as
well, they might just add additional training to accommodate the new
circumstances so that the dog would be providing the additional
assistance
to the handler.

Interesting questions.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 10:47 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] American Legion Auxiliary Raising Funds
forServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran

Yes, but what does "working with you" mean? If I applied for a dog, then
decided I didn't want one, what could they "work with". If you applied
for a dog and got very very ill, what do you "work with"? 
Not following. And, who pays for the dog? What happens to the money and
the dog if the dog is not going to go to the person it is customized
for? 
I'm serious guys, not trying to be difficult. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 1:44 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] American Legion Auxiliary Raising Funds for
ServiceDogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran

I expect they would work with you ont his?

Cindy

On Sep 30, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:

> Wonder what would happen if a person decided they didn't want a dog
say
> a year into the two year cycle? Or if a person wanted a dog but
couldn't
> have one for a bunch of other unforeseen issues? 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:19 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] American Legion Auxiliary Raising Funds for
Service
> Dogfor Disabled Idaho Veteran
> 
> Yes, I've heard of them, but that's about it.  I don't know of anyone
> who 
> has a dog through them or anything about their programs. I also didn't
> know 
> that they only placed dogs with veterans.  The person I heard about
them
> 
> from wasn't a veteran I don't think.  I'm pretty sure they were
willing
> to 
> train a dog for her, but the wait was too much.
> 
> I think it's cool that they use clicker training and that each dog is 
> individually trained for their specific handler.
> 
> Julie
> 
> 
> 
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