[nagdu] Issuing dogs at 18 months - is it too young?

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri Apr 8 15:28:31 UTC 2011


Jeff,

When I was researching those things to work up a training plan for my
soon-to-come poodle, I did note that TSE and a couple of the older programs
followed that policy, as did the non-U.S. programs I was able to ifnd
information on.  It was the newer programs that would start guide training
as young as 12 months.  Which I honestly found shocking.

I can't remember if I started to try to correlate return rates with the age
factor, since I was looking for an overview, not building a statistical
model, but I think the information wasn't there in enough instances that I
decided to put evaluating that youth vs. return rate on hold.

I did suspect -- and still kind of do -- that it's a financial decision,
thus the correlation between the age of the program with the graduation of
younger dogs.  The older programs have much more secure, well-established
funding sources for the most part.

While I've since met a number of people who have done well with young dogs,
it's obvious that a dog can be a working guide at a very young age, subadult
or not.

However, I'm also with Lisa and others in believing it's a mental health
issue for the dog, as well, and would rather see them given time to be young
and to mature before starting on such a demanding career.  /smile/  Of
course, I can't go around interviewing dogs who started work young to find
out what they think and how they evaluate their happiness and quality of
life, so it's hard to make a purely rational judgment on that score.
/smile/  Dogs are individuals, and so are their trainers and handlers, so
the effect of an early start on the dog's health and mental well-being
probably depends on a lot of factors.

For myself, I chose to extend Mitzi's puppyhood and not plan to "graduate"
her until 24 months.  She was ready to guide -- in a way -- on the sidewalk
on jaunts around our neighborhood, especially since they always ended at the
dog park, and she seemed to get a kick out of doing it.  But I wasn't
putting any real pressure on her and was familiar with all the routes we
would take and carried my cane for an extended length of time so that I
could help her figure things out.  In other words, she was guiding and
learning about her future career, but she was definitely not a working
guide!  /smile/  It was tempting to take her ready grasp of the skills and
even the decision-making for her job and go ahead with finishing the
training and getting to work with her, but I elected not to.  Instead, we
moved slowly into new areas with trickier routes.  It was definitely the
right call for her.  She would do well when we started doing more demanding
work-like jaunts with my cane in my pocket and her taking responsibility
with minimal input from me.  I was stunned how clever she was!  Distractable
still, but she really tried.  Then it would get to be too much, and she
would melt down.  So I would give her a success and then take out the cane
and put the harness in my backpack so we could just enjoy being buds
together and go home.  /smile/  

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jeffrey Young
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:47 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issuing dogs at 18 months - is it too young?

The school I went to was the seeing eye, and the youngest dog I new of that
went out in my class was just under 24 months. From what I understand the
dogs don't even leave their puppy raisers until about 17 months. I don't
know how other schools do it.

Jeff and Hansel
On Apr 7, 2011, at 5:44 PM, GARY STEEVES wrote:

> 
> Hello:
> 
> Yes, my school did say that this was the case. Generally all the poodles
that went out in my class were older than their lab counterparts. Bogart was
almost 20 months when I got him. I'm not sure what maturity  means. I
certainly have seen him calm down over the past year.
> 
> today was our first day at work after I was away for 9 days and he was
left with my boss, her husband and their 2 dogs. He seems to b  coping just
fine. A bit distracted guiding but, hey, he is a poodle afater all.
Hopefully my boss will be able to look after him again when I go to hawaii
in May.
> 
> Gary
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sarah Clark <goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 8:30 pm
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issuing dogs at 18 months - is it too young?
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> 
>> I was told by someone at one of the schools that poodles tend to 
>> mature more slowly than the labs, so they tend to stay in their 
>> puppy homes longer and they take longer to go through 
>> training.  Has anyone else heard this?
>> 
>> Sarah & Miguel
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" 
>> <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the 
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 6:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issuing dogs at 18 months - is it too young?
>> 
>> 
>>> Rox,
>>> 
>>> Way to go Laveau!
>>> 
>>> So Mitzi poodle was trained in terms of having the skills down 
>> by 18
>>> monmths, but I chose to let her go to 24 months before I 
>> considered her
>>> graduated.  She did do some full working trips and handled 
>> it very well, but
>>> I didn't want to put a full-time guide dog burden on her 
>> because I was
>>> concerned about her maturity and how much it might strees her 
>> and how that
>>> might affect her future work...
>>> 
>>> Then again, I was 8very* aware that my poodle pup was burdened 
>> with a total
>>> newbie self-taught -- and still working on it -- handler, so 
>> asking her to
>>> take full respsonsibility under those conditions seemed a bit much!
>>> 
>>> Reviewing that period of our lives together now, I'm thinking 
>> that I could
>>> have let her work progress with her knowledge much more 
>> rapidly, assuming I
>>> knew what I know now.  And what I hope to know by the time 
>> I do it all over
>>> again in a few years.  /smile/
>>> 
>>> She was still really, really puppy at 18 months, though, and it 
>> was tough
>>> for her to work for long periods without showing signs of 
>> having had too
>>> much...  One reason I keep thinking dobie is that they do 
>> seem to "grow up"
>>> more quickly than poodles, while having some of those same 
>> character traits
>>> I really adore in Mitzi.  Even mellow poodles like Mitzi 
>> are wound pretty
>>> tight, much like their curls.  /lol/
>>> 
>>> Of course, Mitzi has DD hooked on poodles, so I may find myself 
>> doing the
>>> whole poodle thing all over again, just 10 years older.  
>> I'd better start
>>> catching up on my rest!  /grin/
>>> 
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 4:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Issuing dogs at 18 months - is it too young?
>>> 
>>> Steve,
>>> 
>>> I totally agree with you here.  Bristol was a program 
>> trained dog
>>> issued at 18 months.  She was very matured and retired due 
>> to medical
>>> reasons.  The dog I had gotten before that was issued at 
>> 24 months and
>>> was very immature.
>>> 
>>> I start formal harness training around 12-14 months and usually my
>>> dogs are finished between 18-20 months.  My border collie, Gracy
>>> didn't really grow up until she was 4, and she retired when she was
>>> 7.  Laveau was born mature, I think and she guided me 
>> around Boston
>>> (which was a totally new city for her) when she was 15 months 
>> old and
>>> her work was flawless.
>>> It really just depends on the dog, I think.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rox and the Botanical Barkers:
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "The only problem with troubleshooting is, sometimes, trouble shoots
>>> back."
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>> 
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