[nagdu] should guides be given a secondowner if it doesn'tworkout with the first owner?

[Tamara Smith-Kinney]

Oh, goodie!  Somehow I'm still convinced that I myself must be nuts to have
even considered it and more nuts still be planning how I'm going to do it
again.

But I'm glad the rest of you are okay!  /lol/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:59 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a secondowner if it
doesn'tworkout with the first owner?

* and relieved to learn that the other
owner-trainers I've met now and gotten to know are just ridiculously sane.*

ROFLOL  That just made my day!

Julie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it 
doesn'tworkout with the first owner?


> Tami
> Thanks for answering my questions!
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 3:48 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it 
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
> Brittney,
>
> Thanks for asking!  There are a few others on this list, all of whom have
> more experience than I, so I learned a lot from them.  I was shocked to
> discover that I wasn't the only crazy nut to even contemplate doing such a
> thing in the first place, and relieved to learn that the other
> owner-trainers I've met now and gotten to know are just ridiculously sane.
> /smile/
>
> As for certification,.that isn't needed and doesn't exist, despite many
> people's belief that it is.  The guide dog programs must be certified to
> train and provide dogs, and maybe to raise funds, as well.  I don't know 
> the
> ins and outs there, but they have to meet certain standards, and so do the
> trainers.  Many, if not most, will provide a certification of some sort to
> their graduates, which I hear can come in handy in dealing with access
> disputes.  /smile/
>
> As for how I taught her...  The short answer is applied operant
> conditioning.  /smile/  Clicker training is the most familiar method of
> doing that, and I did finally get me one and now can't go anywhere with 
> out
> it!  I use positive reinforcement almost exclusively, which as it turns 
> out
> makes training even the complex behaviors and all the other stuff required
> for guide work almost embarrassingly easy.  /lol/  If you consider 19 
> months
> of 24/7 nonstop thinking and speaking and reading about and doing nothing
> else easy.  Another thing I have noticed in other owner-trainers is that
> they love it so much it never occurs to them to think of any of this as
> work.  /grin/
>
> Julie explains the process of devising and following a training plan much
> better than I.  Basically, very basically, you start by thinking of the
> behaviors and even attitudes that you want in your finished dog.  Then you
> work your way backward to break each facet down to its most basic parts.
> Then you start with the component behaviors and slowly build them into
> behavior chains, then more complex chains and so on as your dog and you 
> are
> ready to advance.  Er...  That may sound clumsy the way I describe it.  It
> actually makes sense once you start doing it.  /smile/
>
> Training and then working around Portland, Oregon, I've been pleased to 
> have
> relatively few even minor hassles over access.  When I was training, I 
> made
> private arrangements with local store and restaurants so that I could 
> bring
> her in for socialization and training in those environments.  They were
> really great!  I made sure to include in my pitch that I would remove my 
> pup
> if her behavior became disruptive, would pay for any merchandise she ate,
> etc.  I also admitted that I was new to blindness and was still learning 
> how
> to keep track of the wiggly, bouncing, curious, busy mass of black curls 
> at
> the end of the leash and invited them to feel free to let me know if she 
> was
> doing something she shouldn't that I missesd.  I'm happy to report no
> disasters, despite months of providing huge amusement to staff and 
> customers
> alike.  It's a good thing that poodle is cute, that's all I can say.  I
> still have lingering trauma from the nightmares I had in which things did
> not go so well.  /lol/
>
> When we were ready to expand our activities because she was working well
> enough, if in a still limited capacity, in harness, I did get a few minor
> hassles but was able to resolve them on my own.  Whew!  Mostly, it was 
> over
> the lack of a green vest.  Portland is GDB territory -- Boring, where they
> have a campus, is a suburb or close to -- and the green vests the pups and
> guides in training wear are a familiar sight.  As is the GDB harness on 
> the
> teams in training.  They're almost entirely a lab school now, so the lab
> guide is now what people expect around here.  Someone not too long ago was
> exclaiming over my poodle (I didn't know they used those for that!) and 
> went
> right exclaiming about seeing a shepherd as a guide.  He didn't know they
> used those for that, either.  /smile/  I generally hear the same
> misconception as, "I thought they only used labrador retrievers for that."
>
> So GDB's PR in the area and the familiarity of the populace with their 
> pups,
> trainees, new teams in training and the local working guides from GDB has
> been a plus for me overall, while providing me with some amusement and 
> only
> a little aggravation about having to explain about the vests when I 
> venture
> beyond my home turf.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Brittney N. Mejico
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:11 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
> Hi Tami .
> Thanks now I know that I'm not the only one who feels that way. Omg I have
> so many questions about the do it yourself guide dog training. How did you
> teach your dog to be a guide?  How did you get her certified? do places 
> you
> take her to hastle you because you didn't get her at a guide school?
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 10:35 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
> Brittney,
>
> Don't worry, you are not alone in being a new guide dog user who freaks 
> out
> over every little thing.  I was my guide dog's -- and my own -- program,
> trainer and instructor.  Sooner or later, you suddenly notice that you're
> just going along and haven't had anything to freak out over for a long 
> time.
> Me, when that happens, I kinda freak out.  But I guess that's just the 
> kind
> of gal I am.  /grin/
>
> Thanks for starting such an interesting discussion!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Brittney N. Mejico
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:46 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
> You are all ausome!
> Thanks for all of your help.  I  have given everything that all of you 
> have
> said some thought and the positive outweigh the negative and I hate using 
> a
> cane.  Dogs are amazing, I can't immagion my life without Harvard the more

> I
>
> think about it.  She has prevented me from getting hit  by a car, a car 
> came
>
> out of no where and she reacted perfectly.  The more I think about
> everything I have no reason to complain.  Yes I totallywas over reacting.
> Every dog has it falts like every human, they will make mistakes and so 
> will
>
> we.  I am learning to relax things happen.  I am a new guide dog user and
> every new thing my dog does that the school didn't talk about totally 
> freaks
>
> me out.  Sometimes I wish that the class would have been longer.  I guess
> the schools can't teach us everything some things we have to learn on our
> own.    All of you have been so helpful I can't thank you enough for your
> wonderful advice.
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Lyn Gwizdak
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued.  This dog was with a 
> guy
> who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was taken from him 
> and
> my friend got this same dog.  Boy, what stories this dog could have told 
> if
> he could talk!  It was a very nice dog and she worked well for my friend 
> and
> she had a good long working life.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
>
>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>
>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I keep thinking 
>> how
>
>> much it means to me when someone gives me a second chance. Our dogs
>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out, or re 
>> issued.
>>
>> Lisa and Bernie
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>
>>
>>> Brittney,
>>>
>>> I'm glad you asked this question.  That's one of those program policies 
>>> I
>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my first response 
>>> to
>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>
>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with dogs who were
>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view of the
>>> practice.
>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well with re-issued
>>> dogs or from people who know people...  /smile/  Still, I get it more 
>>> now
>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it does seem to
>>> work
>>> for the most part.  There will certainly be times when it doesn't, but
>>> that
>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>
>>> As for whether you're over-reacting...  As a still pretty new and only
>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an owner-trainer then
>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and ways of
>>> thinking
>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as closely as I have
>>> those of the long-timers.  I can watch my peers in that regard to give
>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just in skill but
>>> in
>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with much more
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a generalized
>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just coming past the
>>> team building phase:  We over-react.  To everything.  /lol/  The good,
>>> the
>>> bad, the mundane...  It is all new and exciting and frightening and
>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief.  We popped out to dinner just
>>> this
>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one little thing that
>>> no
>>> one would have noticed beyond our table...  Outwardly, I remained calm
>>> and
>>> responded correctly and it was all okay.  Inwardly, what did I do? 
>>> /lol/
>>> OMG!  How can this be?  What can it mean?  Oh, no, this is so terrible!
>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth all the fuss
>>> and
>>> got over it.  /smile/  More and more, it's all old hat, but apparently I
>>> can
>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>
>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...  I think 
>>> others
>>> are right in their observations that during the first year or so, there
>>> will
>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy about your dog.
>>> In
>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your own mind than 
>>> in
>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience dhandler.  The bad
>>> habits
>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not really habit
>>> for
>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs.  So you really have to think
>>> your
>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to figure out how 
>>> to
>>> counteract and...  Well, on and on.  It just takes awhile for all of 
>>> that
>
>>> to
>>> become havit and natural.  I've only been there for a short while --  
>>> with
>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure is nice!
>>>
>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through the tream
>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is where it all
>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.  /smile/  I'm
>>> loving
>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into the taking it
>>> all
>>> for granted phase.
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it doesn't 
>>> work
>>> out with the first owner?
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>> My dog had another handler before me.  I don't think that guides should
>>> be
>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad habits and 
>>> they
>>> are  really hard to get rid of.  I love my  dog very muchand harvard has
>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her bad habbits,
>>> and
>>> we still have some work to do.  What do you guys think? am I over
>>> reacting?
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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