[nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights

Marion Gwizdala blind411 at verizon.net
Mon Apr 18 11:12:41 UTC 2011


Lisa,
    I'm not sure if I know what I am doing here! Is this the bar? Seriously, 
you did a good job expressing yourself!

Fraternally yours,
Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights


> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>
> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the school when 
> a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or the assigned 
> veterinarian.  With holding such vital information could have devastating 
> results for the guide dog team.
>
> Lisa and Bernie
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>>
>> Lisa,
>>    Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the issues 
>> you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or two 
>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome to do 
>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this one.
>>
>> a.       Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to 
>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>
>>
>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses this 
>> information:
>>
>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>
>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog guides 
>> and re issued guides
>>
>>
>>> I believe  the school has an obligation to be up front with the student. 
>>> I respect  that the school doesn't want to set the student or the dog up 
>>> for frustration and failure. This is what I base my belief on.
>>>
>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a finicky 
>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not eat. 
>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly.  I was told that from 
>>> the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers used 
>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon cheese 
>>> on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up to slipping 
>>> her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be on the alert.
>>>
>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The puppyraisers said 
>>> something about all of his allergies and how he needed special food. I 
>>> disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog had various food 
>>> allergies the school would know and they would tell me.  Louie is the 
>>> dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral issues. No, he had 
>>> very severe food allergies which explained why he learned to get the 
>>> bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He also feasted on animal 
>>> feces too.
>>>
>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not 
>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences with 
>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two 
>>> different dog foods  that left him with gooey poo.  Bernie eats  a fresh 
>>> and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the dog's food 
>>> if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In Bernie's food is: 
>>> salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and other items{.
>>>
>>> Lisa and Bernie ,  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second 
>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>> Quite true.  Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let me know 
>>>> if,
>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer.  Though they probably
>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go nuts over
>>>> little problems.  But you're probably right that no one is going to 
>>>> tell
>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we receive 
>>>>> who
>>>>> are
>>>>> not reissues.  They normally don't tell us about those things when we
>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a 
>>>>> reissue
>>>>> just
>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument.  There could be plenty of 
>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention.  For example, Ben empties 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> route.  The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over first. 
>>>>>> To
>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur to me
>>>>>> during
>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to 
>>>>>> mention
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied every 5
>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any undesirable
>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps to
>>>>>> correct
>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all.  You can bet, next
>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties on 
>>>>>> route.
>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead. <grimace.>
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know why 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you.  The
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if the 
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need 
>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is going 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual.  But then 
>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if its a
>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and the
>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any problems. If 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like something
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that shouldn't
>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically doesn't want 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a dog 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food distraction
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work, I'd be
>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that information.  My
>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of the best
>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> have ever had.  As I said I'll always wonder why her previous match
>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the school,
>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do.  She lived in one 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while.  It was
>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and it's
>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify them all 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same category.  True that an occasional dog that is a reissue may 
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to handle for 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the dog 
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc, but 
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.  Maybe the 
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and realized this
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband with a
>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> many years ago).  Maybe it just wasn't a good match.  Or maybe the
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle the
>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school thinks 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for.  Its also true 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more seasoned 
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> younger dogs.  Though it is clear that some applicants don't want 
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the 
>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued.  This dog was 
>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was taken
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog.  Boy, what stories this dog 
>>>>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>>>have told if he could talk!  It was a very nice dog and she worked
>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I keep
>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second chance. 
>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out, or 
>>>>>>>>>> re
>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question.  That's one of those program
>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my first
>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with dogs 
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view of 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well with
>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people...  /smile/  Still, I get it
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it does
>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part.  There will certainly be times when it 
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting...  As a still pretty new 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an owner-trainer 
>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and ways 
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as closely 
>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers.  I can watch my peers in that regard 
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just in 
>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with much 
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a
>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just coming
>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase:  We over-react.  To everything.  /lol/  The
>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane...  It is all new and exciting and frightening 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief.  We popped out to dinner
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one little 
>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table...  Outwardly, I 
>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay.  Inwardly, what did I 
>>>>>>>>>>> do?
>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>> OMG!  How can this be?  What can it mean?  Oh, no, this is so
>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth all 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>> got over it.  /smile/  More and more, it's all old hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...  I 
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year or 
>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy about 
>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your own 
>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience dhandler. 
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not 
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs.  So you really have to
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to figure 
>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and...  Well, on and on.  It just takes awhile for 
>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural.  I've only been there for a short 
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure is
>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through the
>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is 
>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.  /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into the
>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing 
>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me.  I don't think that guides
>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad habits
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> are  really hard to get rid of.  I love my  dog very muchand
>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her bad
>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do.  What do you guys think? am I 
>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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