[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Hope Paulos
hope.paulos at gmail.com
Fri Apr 22 18:00:57 UTC 2011
Buddy, there's no contract for Seeing eye?? Do you automatically own the dog
or do you not have that choice?
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
> Well, you won't get a contract from Seeing Eye, because there isn't one.
> Yeah, the GDA thing is a bit disappointing though.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>
>> Julie and Listers,
>> Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership agreement.
>> It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for their
>> ownership agreement and am in the process of making similar requests to
>> each of the training programs. As of this writing, I have received no
>> other replies.
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound
>>> like what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
>>> available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract
>>> would help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want to
>>> apply to. It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be
>>> accepted and then read the contract only to find out it isn't something
>>> I'm willing to sign.
>>>
>>> thoughts?
>>> Julie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your dog
>>>> is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog they
>>>> have the right to take your dog At least that's what they told me.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Brittney,
>>>>
>>>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in the
>>>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go through
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both of
>>>>> you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how
>>>>> much. I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there
>>>>> but man they LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about six
>>>>> months ago. My grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits and
>>>>> kicks my guide dog and they believed her. They took my dog and then
>>>>> gave her back after they couldn't find any proof that she had been
>>>>> abused. It was a totally uncool experience. Yes the fabracated
>>>>> stories have to stop. I thought that I was the only one who has had
>>>>> some person make up a story about them and have the school take
>>>>> someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my dog back. I
>>>>> am glad that I now know know that the schools talk to each other.I
>>>>> hope this issue does not effect me if I ever apply for another guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn,
>>>>>
>>>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
>>>>> campus,
>>>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
>>>>> Commission
>>>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the
>>>>> GDB
>>>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly believed
>>>>> them
>>>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>>>
>>>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load of
>>>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
>>>>> full.
>>>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
>>>>> showed
>>>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
>>>>> carrying
>>>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it down
>>>>> that
>>>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing
>>>>> when
>>>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide
>>>>> dog of
>>>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
>>>>> apparently
>>>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So I've
>>>>> heard
>>>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
>>>>> come
>>>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if
>>>>> they
>>>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
>>>>> their
>>>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
>>>>> somehow
>>>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon
>>>>> Commission for
>>>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
>>>>> some
>>>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
>>>>> navigate
>>>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks
>>>>> without
>>>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
>>>>> computer,
>>>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things.
>>>>> She
>>>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that
>>>>> I was
>>>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
>>>>> great
>>>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it
>>>>> up if
>>>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to
>>>>> save
>>>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to the
>>>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
>>>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to the
>>>>> dog.
>>>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting through
>>>>> the
>>>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one
>>>>> but
>>>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
>>>>> everything
>>>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a
>>>>> surprisingly
>>>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also,
>>>>> it
>>>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
>>>>> crossed
>>>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program
>>>>> when
>>>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
>>>>> quite
>>>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
>>>>> chatted
>>>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general
>>>>> perception of
>>>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect a
>>>>> good
>>>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
>>>>> didn't
>>>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report,
>>>>> which
>>>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it.
>>>>> She
>>>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give
>>>>> an
>>>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>>>
>>>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB, though,
>>>>> to
>>>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
>>>>> statement
>>>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
>>>>> issue in
>>>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed
>>>>> that I
>>>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had
>>>>> better
>>>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of how
>>>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
>>>>> affect
>>>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>>>
>>>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat out
>>>>> lies
>>>>> has got to go!
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
>>>>> "busy
>>>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
>>>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out
>>>>> of
>>>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just
>>>>> will
>>>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This is
>>>>> all
>>>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned down
>>>>> by
>>>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
>>>>> guide"
>>>>>
>>>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
>>>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
>>>>> happened
>>>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
>>>>> thought
>>>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE was
>>>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted me
>>>>> back
>>>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
>>>>> from
>>>>> TSE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> hay Lyn
>>>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they treated
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> like that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>>>> school,
>>>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's
>>>>>> brother was
>>>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know. However
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
>>>>>> irritate
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
>>>>>> cigarette
>>>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us -
>>>>>> individually -
>>>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> crap
>>>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog
>>>>>> back and
>>>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a local
>>>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The trainer
>>>>>> came
>>>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
>>>>>> denied
>>>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>>>>>> denied
>>>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE ever
>>>>>> since!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>>>> towards
>>>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
>>>>>> EXIST
>>>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must realize
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each
>>>>>>> year
>>>>>
>>>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>>>>>> enhancing
>>>>>
>>>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers -
>>>>>>> donate
>>>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their
>>>>>>> livings.
>>>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>
>>>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>>>>> wards
>>>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership
>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
>>>>>>> beholden
>>>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our
>>>>>>>> dogs for
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they may
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
>>>>>>>> home. I
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a
>>>>>>>> food
>>>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there guide
>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
>>>>>>>> lived
>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
>>>>>>>> well -
>>>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies?
>>>>>>>> Input
>>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good
>>>>>>>> health.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to fail
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
>>>>>>>> this -
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the only
>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
>>>>>>>> reports
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>>>> regional
>>>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living being
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one
>>>>>>>>>> or two
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome
>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this
>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program
>>>>>>>>>> discloses
>>>>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
>>>>>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>>>>>> finicky
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
>>>>>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The
>>>>>>>>>>> puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed
>>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog
>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would tell
>>>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral
>>>>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained
>>>>>>>>>>> why he
>>>>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He
>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced
>>>>>>>>>>> diet.{In
>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>> Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from
>>>>>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go
>>>>>>>>>>>> nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a dog
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this dog
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I get
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty new
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year or
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awhile for
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pshald%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.ne
>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/brittneymejico%40veri
>>>>> zon.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>> t
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
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>>>>> zon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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