[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri Apr 22 19:48:15 UTC 2011
Buddy,
Just make sure I'm following: Is the nonexistence of the contract because
the ownership transfer is that automatic and without conditions once you
have graduated?
That's what I'm hearing from you, and I hope I'm right because I like it!
/grin/ Also restores my faith, since TSE is one of two programs I would
even consider applying to at time while I have no plans at all to need to
apply to... Just like to know what my options are ahead of time, I guess.
/smile/ The other is GDF. Those two schools are there on the list of
options I hope not to need anytime soon because of, guess what? Ownership!
Other things I've learned about them, too, but that's the key point for me.
So Plan A is and always will be owner-training. No question about who owns
the dog there, and you can always give the trainer a good piece of your mind
when things go wrong because she didn't do her job right. /lol/ Contact
with the puppyraiser is also fairly easy to accomplish, only she tries to
interfere because she can't stop thinking of my guide dog as a cute puppy...
Sigh. There are always drawbacks, I suppose.
Crazy dogs over here, too, today. It seems to be rubbing off on me, and
I've got a cuople of hours to go of maintaining quiet time before my
sleeping roommate gets up to go to work so the other one can come home...
/lol/
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Buddy Brannan
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:43 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Well, you won't get a contract from Seeing Eye, because there isn't one.
Yeah, the GDA thing is a bit disappointing though.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> Julie and Listers,
> Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership agreement.
It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for their ownership
agreement and am in the process of making similar requests to each of the
training programs. As of this writing, I have received no other replies.
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound like
what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>>
>> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract would
help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want to apply to.
It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be accepted and then
read the contract only to find out it isn't something I'm willing to sign.
>>
>> thoughts?
>> Julie
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> Julie
>>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your dog
is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog they have
the right to take your dog At least that's what they told me.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Brittney,
>>>
>>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in the
>>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>>
>>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go through
that.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both of
you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how much. I
got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there but man they
LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about six months ago. My
grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits and kicks my guide dog and
they believed her. They took my dog and then gave her back after they
couldn't find any proof that she had been abused. It was a totally uncool
experience. Yes the fabracated stories have to stop. I thought that I was
the only one who has had some person make up a story about them and have the
school take someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my dog
back. I am glad that I now know know that the schools talk to each other.I
hope this issue does not effect me if I ever apply for another guide.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Lyn,
>>>>
>>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
campus,
>>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
Commission
>>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the
GDB
>>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly believed
them
>>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>>
>>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load of
>>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
full.
>>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
showed
>>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
carrying
>>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it down
that
>>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing
when
>>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide
dog of
>>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
apparently
>>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So I've
heard
>>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
come
>>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if
they
>>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
their
>>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
somehow
>>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>>
>>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon Commission
for
>>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
some
>>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
navigate
>>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks without
>>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
computer,
>>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things.
She
>>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that I
was
>>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
great
>>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it up
if
>>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to
save
>>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to the
>>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
>>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to the
dog.
>>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting through
the
>>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one
but
>>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
everything
>>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a
surprisingly
>>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also,
it
>>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
crossed
>>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program
when
>>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
quite
>>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
chatted
>>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general perception
of
>>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect a
good
>>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
didn't
>>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report,
which
>>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it.
She
>>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give an
>>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>>
>>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB, though,
to
>>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
statement
>>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
issue in
>>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed that
I
>>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had better
>>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of how
>>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
affect
>>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>>
>>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat out
lies
>>>> has got to go!
>>>>
>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
>>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
"busy
>>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
>>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
doesn't
>>>>
>>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out
of
>>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
doesn't
>>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>>
>>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just
will
>>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This is
all
>>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>>
>>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned down
by
>>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
guide"
>>>>
>>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>>
>>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
>>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
happened
>>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>>
>>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
thought
>>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE was
>>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted me
back
>>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
from
>>>> TSE.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> hay Lyn
>>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they treated
you
>>>>> like that
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>>
>>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>>> school,
>>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's brother
was
>>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with
each
>>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know. However
they
>>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
irritate
>>>>> his
>>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
cigarette
>>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
anything
>>>>> to
>>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
didn't
>>>>> get
>>>>> along.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us - individually
-
>>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
without
>>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any
of
>>>>> the
>>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately, the
>>>>> crap
>>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one, the
>>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
another
>>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to the
>>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
that
>>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog back
and
>>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a local
>>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The trainer
came
>>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
that I
>>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
denied
>>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
denied
>>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across
the
>>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE ever
>>>>> since!
>>>>>
>>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>>> towards
>>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
EXIST
>>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must realize
this
>>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each
year
>>>>
>>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
enhancing
>>>>
>>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers - donate
>>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their livings.
>>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
receive
>>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
training
>>>>
>>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
wards
>>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
dog.
>>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership upon
>>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them are
>>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
beholden
>>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and with
the
>>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our dogs
for
>>>>
>>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed
of
>>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think the
>>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they may
have
>>>>
>>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
home. I
>>>>
>>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a food
>>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there guide
dogs
>>>>
>>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs are
>>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
lived
>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as well
-
>>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
dogs
>>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies? Input
>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
what
>>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good
health.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either
want
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to fail
so
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
this -
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the only
info
>>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
reports
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>>> regional
>>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed to
>>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living being
and
>>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
<lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
school
>>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or
the
>>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could
have
>>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or
two
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome
to do
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this
one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to
>>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses
>>>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
<lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
guides
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
student
>>>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base my
>>>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
finicky
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
eat.
>>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told
that
>>>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers
used
>>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up
to
>>>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be
on
>>>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The
puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed
special
>>>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog
had
>>>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would tell
me.
>>>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral
>>>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained why
he
>>>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He
also
>>>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not
>>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences
with
>>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats
a
>>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the
>>>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In
>>>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and
other
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy
Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let
me
>>>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they
probably
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go
nuts
>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is going
to
>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
receive
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things
when
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur
to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps
to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties
on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
<grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to
know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact
you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if
the
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But
then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if
its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants,
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a
dog
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work,
I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her
previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived
in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It
was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a
reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the
dog
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc,
but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also
true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This
dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog
was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories
this dog
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I
keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
chance.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still, I
get
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and
it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still pretty
new
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
owner-trainer
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not
just in
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with
much
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on
a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
/lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
little
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what
did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this
is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat,
but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...
I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first
year or
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
about
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your
own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's
not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really
have
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes awhile
for
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming
through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which
is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
Mailing
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of
her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think?
am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die
today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>
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>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> for nagdu:
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>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>> et
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>> zon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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