[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri Apr 22 20:06:57 UTC 2011
Cindy,
Oh, that's another good reason for the programs to want to hang onto the
harnesses. Don't blame them a bit there, either!
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:22 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
I think all we signed was an agreement to pay but not sure. The reason for
the harness is they want them back and don't want them sold places like
EBay. There are those who will buy harnesses in an attempt to use them in
ways that they should not be, or at least I think that's what was said.
Anyway, it's not about me.
On Apr 22, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> This is true, but I never signed anything. I don't particularly have an
issue with ownership of the harness. After all, it has their name on it.
Besides, as I've said a thousand times, there's nothing magic about guide
dog equipment, and one can obtain replacements if necessary.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>
>> Yes, TSE maintains ownership of the harness.
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>
>>> Well, you won't get a contract from Seeing Eye, because there isn't
one. Yeah, the GDA thing is a bit disappointing though.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>
>>>> Julie and Listers,
>>>> Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership agreement.
It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for their ownership
agreement and am in the process of making similar requests to each of the
training programs. As of this writing, I have received no other replies.
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound
like what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract would
help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want to apply to.
It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be accepted and then
read the contract only to find out it isn't something I'm willing to sign.
>>>>>
>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your
dog is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog they
have the right to take your dog At least that's what they told me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in
the
>>>>>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go
through that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>>>>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both
of you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how much.
I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there but man they
LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about six months ago. My
grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits and kicks my guide dog and
they believed her. They took my dog and then gave her back after they
couldn't find any proof that she had been abused. It was a totally uncool
experience. Yes the fabracated stories have to stop. I thought that I was
the only one who has had some person make up a story about them and have the
school take someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my dog
back. I am glad that I now know know that the schools talk to each other.I
hope this issue does not effect me if I ever apply for another guide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
campus,
>>>>>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
Commission
>>>>>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And
the GDB
>>>>>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly
believed them
>>>>>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load
of
>>>>>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
full.
>>>>>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when
I showed
>>>>>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
carrying
>>>>>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it
down that
>>>>>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>>>>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous
thing when
>>>>>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide
dog of
>>>>>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
apparently
>>>>>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So
I've heard
>>>>>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
come
>>>>>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs
if they
>>>>>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program
or their
>>>>>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
somehow
>>>>>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon
Commission for
>>>>>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
some
>>>>>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
navigate
>>>>>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks
without
>>>>>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
computer,
>>>>>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these
things. She
>>>>>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail --
that I was
>>>>>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had
really great
>>>>>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it
up if
>>>>>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to
save
>>>>>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to
the
>>>>>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had
some
>>>>>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to
the dog.
>>>>>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting
through the
>>>>>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not
one but
>>>>>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
everything
>>>>>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a
surprisingly
>>>>>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it.
Also, it
>>>>>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
crossed
>>>>>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog
program when
>>>>>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
quite
>>>>>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>>>>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
chatted
>>>>>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>>>>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general
perception of
>>>>>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect
a good
>>>>>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
didn't
>>>>>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report,
which
>>>>>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about
it. She
>>>>>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give
an
>>>>>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB,
though, to
>>>>>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
statement
>>>>>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
issue in
>>>>>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>>>>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed
that I
>>>>>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had
better
>>>>>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of
how
>>>>>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
affect
>>>>>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat
out lies
>>>>>>> has got to go!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
"busy
>>>>>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories
here
>>>>>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
doesn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved
out of
>>>>>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
doesn't
>>>>>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just
will
>>>>>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>>>>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This
is all
>>>>>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned
down by
>>>>>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as
a guide"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>>>>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed
the
>>>>>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
happened
>>>>>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
thought
>>>>>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE
was
>>>>>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted
me back
>>>>>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
from
>>>>>>> TSE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hay Lyn
>>>>>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they
treated you
>>>>>>>> like that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's
brother was
>>>>>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with
each
>>>>>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know.
However they
>>>>>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
irritate
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
cigarette
>>>>>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
anything
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
didn't
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us -
individually -
>>>>>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
without
>>>>>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>>>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking
any of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately,
the
>>>>>>>> crap
>>>>>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one,
the
>>>>>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
another
>>>>>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to
the
>>>>>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
that
>>>>>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog
back and
>>>>>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a
local
>>>>>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The
trainer came
>>>>>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
that I
>>>>>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
denied
>>>>>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
denied
>>>>>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture
across the
>>>>>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE
ever
>>>>>>>> since!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
EXIST
>>>>>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must
realize this
>>>>>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars
each year
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
enhancing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers -
donate
>>>>>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their
livings.
>>>>>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
receive
>>>>>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
training
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
wards
>>>>>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
dog.
>>>>>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership
upon
>>>>>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them
are
>>>>>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
beholden
>>>>>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and
with the
>>>>>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
<brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our
dogs for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be
informed of
>>>>>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think
the
>>>>>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they
may have
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
home. I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a
food
>>>>>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there
guide dogs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs
are
>>>>>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
lived
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
well -
>>>>>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
dogs
>>>>>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies?
Input
>>>>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools
do what
>>>>>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good
health.
>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either
want
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to
fail so
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
this -
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the
only info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
reports
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>>>>>> regional
>>>>>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed
to
>>>>>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living
being and
>>>>>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
<lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
school
>>>>>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and
or the
>>>>>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information
could have
>>>>>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one
or two
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is
welcome to do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede
this one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made
to
>>>>>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program
discloses
>>>>>>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
<lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
guides
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
student
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base
my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
finicky
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
eat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told
that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The
puppyraisers used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled
Parmashon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed
up to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me
be on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The
puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed
special
>>>>>>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog
had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would
tell me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had
behavioral
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained
why he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast.
He also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies.
Not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences
with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate
two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie
eats a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced
diet.{In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger
and other
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy
Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would
let me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they
probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from
training.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go
nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is
going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
receive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those
things when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to
for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty
of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull
over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not
occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think
to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming
untied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate
steps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who
empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
<grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to
know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact
you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is
if the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that
is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But
then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless
if its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants,
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to
request a dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't
work, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one
of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her
previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She
lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while.
It was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a
reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop
the dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with,
etc, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my
husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't
handle the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the
school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its
also true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants
don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during
the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued.
This dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog
was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories
this dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and
she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog,
I keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
chance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and
my first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience
with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done
well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/
Still, I get
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained,
and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when
it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still
pretty new
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
owner-trainer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in
that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not
just in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those
with much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but
on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or
just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
/lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out
to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
little
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly,
I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly,
what did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no,
this is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old
hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue
dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first
year or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely
crazy about
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in
your own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but
it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you
really have
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try
to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes
awhile for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming
through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one --
which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move
into the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
Mailing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think
that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of
bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot
of her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys
think? am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pshald%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die
today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.ne
>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> zon.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>
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