[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Julie J
julielj at neb.rr.com
Fri Apr 22 21:35:02 UTC 2011
You know, rental is an interesting concept...I'll have to ponder that some
more. *smile*
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
> That's precicely why I go to TSE. It is REAL ownership and not the BS
> ownership granted by some of the other schools. With the BS ownership, you
> "own" the dog until you screw up with violating the contract - most of
> which is good common sense stuff. I found that you are held to the
> contract even when you no longer have the dog! So, instead of retiring it
> with friends or family, either send all the dogs back upon retirement or
> euthanize them to avoid ever violating the contract!
>
> TSE doesn't take dogs away from graduates as far as I know. In the case of
> Brittney's grandmother telling stories about a boyfriend hitting
> Brittney's dog and GDA took the dog away, Seeing Eye would have had a
> local Animal Control or Humane Society look into the allegations and take
> it from there. If the animal agencies saw abuse, they could take the dog
> just like they can do that with any animal that is showing signs of abuse.
> They know what to look for - that's their training.
>
> I'd say for the Bill of Rights - GET RID OF THE CONTRACTS, period!!!
> Unless the school wants to be real paternalistic and keep the ownership of
> the dog and "rent" it out to the guide dog user.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
>
>
>> Well, you won't get a contract from Seeing Eye, because there isn't one.
>> Yeah, the GDA thing is a bit disappointing though.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>
>>> Julie and Listers,
>>> Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership
>>> agreement. It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for
>>> their ownership agreement and am in the process of making similar
>>> requests to each of the training programs. As of this writing, I have
>>> received no other replies.
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound
>>>> like what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
>>>> available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract
>>>> would help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want
>>>> to apply to. It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be
>>>> accepted and then read the contract only to find out it isn't something
>>>> I'm willing to sign.
>>>>
>>>> thoughts?
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your
>>>>> dog is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog
>>>>> they have the right to take your dog At least that's what they told
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in
>>>>> the
>>>>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go through
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>>>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both
>>>>>> of you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words
>>>>>> how much. I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes
>>>>>> there but man they LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about
>>>>>> six months ago. My grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits
>>>>>> and kicks my guide dog and they believed her. They took my dog and
>>>>>> then gave her back after they couldn't find any proof that she had
>>>>>> been abused. It was a totally uncool experience. Yes the
>>>>>> fabracated stories have to stop. I thought that I was the only one
>>>>>> who has had some person make up a story about them and have the
>>>>>> school take someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my
>>>>>> dog back. I am glad that I now know know that the schools talk to
>>>>>> each other.I hope this issue does not effect me if I ever apply for
>>>>>> another guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
>>>>>> campus,
>>>>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
>>>>>> Commission
>>>>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the
>>>>>> GDB
>>>>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly
>>>>>> believed them
>>>>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
>>>>>> full.
>>>>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
>>>>>> showed
>>>>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
>>>>>> carrying
>>>>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it
>>>>>> down that
>>>>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>>>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide
>>>>>> dog of
>>>>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So
>>>>>> I've heard
>>>>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
>>>>>> somehow
>>>>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon
>>>>>> Commission for
>>>>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
>>>>>> navigate
>>>>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
>>>>>> computer,
>>>>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things.
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that
>>>>>> I was
>>>>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
>>>>>> great
>>>>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it
>>>>>> up if
>>>>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to
>>>>>> save
>>>>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
>>>>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to
>>>>>> the dog.
>>>>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting
>>>>>> through the
>>>>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
>>>>>> everything
>>>>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a
>>>>>> surprisingly
>>>>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
>>>>>> crossed
>>>>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>>>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
>>>>>> chatted
>>>>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>>>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general
>>>>>> perception of
>>>>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect
>>>>>> a good
>>>>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it.
>>>>>> She
>>>>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB,
>>>>>> though, to
>>>>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
>>>>>> statement
>>>>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
>>>>>> issue in
>>>>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>>>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
>>>>>> affect
>>>>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat
>>>>>> out lies
>>>>>> has got to go!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
>>>>>> "busy
>>>>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
>>>>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>>>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This
>>>>>> is all
>>>>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned
>>>>>> down by
>>>>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
>>>>>> guide"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>>>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
>>>>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
>>>>>> happened
>>>>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
>>>>>> thought
>>>>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted
>>>>>> me back
>>>>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> TSE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hay Lyn
>>>>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they
>>>>>>> treated you
>>>>>>> like that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's
>>>>>>> brother was
>>>>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know.
>>>>>>> However they
>>>>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
>>>>>>> irritate
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
>>>>>>> cigarette
>>>>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us -
>>>>>>> individually -
>>>>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> crap
>>>>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog
>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a
>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The
>>>>>>> trainer came
>>>>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
>>>>>>> denied
>>>>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>>>>>>> denied
>>>>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE
>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>> since!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
>>>>>>> EXIST
>>>>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must
>>>>>>> realize this
>>>>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars
>>>>>>>> each year
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>>>>>>> enhancing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers -
>>>>>>>> donate
>>>>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their
>>>>>>>> livings.
>>>>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>>>>>> wards
>>>>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership
>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
>>>>>>>> beholden
>>>>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and
>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our
>>>>>>>>> dogs for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they
>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
>>>>>>>>> home. I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a
>>>>>>>>> food
>>>>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there
>>>>>>>>> guide dogs
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
>>>>>>>>> lived
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
>>>>>>>>> well -
>>>>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies?
>>>>>>>>> Input
>>>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools
>>>>>>>>> do what
>>>>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good
>>>>>>>>> health.
>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to
>>>>>>>>> fail so
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
>>>>>>>>> this -
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the
>>>>>>>>> only info
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
>>>>>>>>> reports
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>>>>> regional
>>>>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living
>>>>>>>>> being and
>>>>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and
>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one
>>>>>>>>>>> or two
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome
>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede
>>>>>>>>>>> this one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program
>>>>>>>>>>> discloses
>>>>>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
>>>>>>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>>>>>>> finicky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed
>>>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me
>>>>>>>>>>>> be on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed
>>>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would
>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral
>>>>>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained
>>>>>>>>>>>> why he
>>>>>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He
>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced
>>>>>>>>>>>> diet.{In
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>> Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> untied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a dog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this dog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I get
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty new
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with much
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awhile for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pshald%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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