[nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
Brittney N. Mejico
brittneymejico at verizon.net
Mon Apr 25 02:06:18 UTC 2011
Lisa
That's omg I don't know what to say
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Irving
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 1:46 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
Years ago, we had a pet dog that ate my grandmother's underwear. They
weren't tiny either.
Lisa and Bernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
> Hay I forgot to askhas anyone ever seen a dog eat a sock? If they were
> eating one wouldn't the blind person know? or do they eat them hole? if
> anyone's guide dog eats a sock whole can you videotape it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brittney N. Mejico
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:14 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
> Tami
> I totally agree with you.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:31 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
> Brittney,
> I
> I am glad you found it helpful! Although the reasons you needed to know
> you're not alone really suck, and I'm not as thrilled to have a story to
> share about that kind of stuff myself. /smile/ If we're going to go
> through life learning things about the culture we live in, we might as
> well
> use our experiences to pass them onto others. Or so I tell myself, even
> though I don't believe it, really. /smile/
>
> Also, I learned very early in life that speakin gup about something bad
> someone is doing to you in front of others is the most effective way to
> get
> it to stop. Also to learn the important lesson is that some things are
> not
> okay and that adults lie through their teeth so you'd best pay attention
> and
> not let those people define your reality for you when it's different from
> the reality the rest of the world is actually living in. That reality has
> its problems, too, but I much prefer it to the invented one my family had
> made up for themselves. This is why I came out of that family sane
> despite
> some pretty dismal statistical odds. Once you accept the invented reality
> that is in direct contrast to observable reality, you're pretty well
> doomed.
> So, bad experience, a bit of random chance in which I popped up and
> corrected the lie in front of a nurse, whose shocked look told me
> everything
> I knew before I fell back into my half-faint again, and that nurse
> probably
> saved my entire future for me right there. Odd how things happen. But I
> talked about that too, and later of round of similar, and I took what I
> got
> in return because if you remove the secrecy you remove its power. Also,
> others will then tell you about their own bummers and go on to find
> strength
> and healing now that they have broken the power of the secret. Knowledge
> is, truly, power.
>
> So with abuses in the resource system for PWDs (persons with
> disabilities).
> As blind consumers we're treated to our own special flavor of it, but at
> the
> core it's not so much a sighted vs. blind issue is as it is a matter of
> who
> has power over whom. And how they use it. If you have something I need
> that I can't get anywhere else for whatever reason, you have power over
> me.
> It is entirely up to you how you choose to use that power. I am at your
> mercy, one way or another. If you choose to use that power to make my
> life
> miserable or even to beat up on me while withholding what it is I need
> from
> you, that leaves me with exactly two options: Put up with the abuse in
> the
> hopes I might actually get what I need, or do without it. Either way, in
> thiose circumstances, it sucks to be me. /grin/
>
> When it comes to resources for us PWDs, we have protections from those who
> will abuse that inherent power in the form of laws and rules and contracts
> and accepted social norms in the larger society within which these abuses
> are taking place. If life and human nature were straightforward and
> simple,
> that would give us all the power, as well as the resources. However... So
> long as the laws are not enforced and the larger society grants the power
> to
> abuse us to those who are breaking all those laws and rules and social
> norms, then we who encounter the abuse have a whole different set of
> options:
>
> 1. Put up and shut up and hope we get some scraps
> 2. Speak up and put up and hope someone else gets the meal that's been
> set
> out for them
>
> Too often, exercising option 2 means you're not going to get even the
> scraps
> you need for the fight and that you're going to get the most scrapes from
> the very people you're trying to feed your own meal to.
>
> Thus, the vast majority of the starving ragged metaphorical masses choose
> option 1 on the basis that is ultimately a whole lot easier than the
> alternative and they are just too hungry and exhausted to even think of
> how
> to start. Sad, but true. Thus, oppressors continue their oppression with
> the full and sometimes willing cooperation of the oppressed.
>
> Who won't even speak up about their problems because they don't want to
> upset the people who are stealing food off their table. Sigh.
>
>
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Brittney N. Mejico
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
> Hi Tami and Lyn,
> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both of you
> guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how much. I
> got
> my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there but man they
> LOVE
> LOVE good stories. I found this out about six months ago. My grandmother
> told them that my X boy friend hits and kicks my guide dog and they
> believed
>
> her. They took my dog and then gave her back after they couldn't find any
> proof that she had been abused. It was a totally uncool experience. Yes
> the fabracated stories have to stop. I thought that I was the only one who
> has had some person make up a story about them and have the school take
> someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my dog back. I am
> glad that I now know know that the schools talk to each other.I hope this
> issue does not effect me if I ever apply for another guide.
>
> Thanks a bunch
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
> Lyn,
>
> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring campus,
> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon Commission
> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the GDB
> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly believed
> them
> hook line and sinker!
>
> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load of
> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were full.
> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
> showed
> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
> carrying
> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it down
> that
> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing when
> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide dog
> of
> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did apparently
> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So I've
> heard
> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how come
> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if they
> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
> their
> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
> somehow
> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>
> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon Commission
> for
> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did some
> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to navigate
> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks without
> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my computer,
> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things. She
> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that I
> was
> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
> great
> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it up if
> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to save
> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>
> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to the
> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to the
> dog.
> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting through the
> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one but
> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
> everything
> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a surprisingly
> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also, it
> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
> crossed
> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program when
> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been quite
> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
> chatted
> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general perception of
> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect a
> good
> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She didn't
> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report, which
> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it. She
> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give an
> accurate report on my mental health status...
>
> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB, though, to
> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
> statement
> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the issue
> in
> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed that I
> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had better
> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of how
> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't affect
> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>
> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat out
> lies
> has got to go!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lyn Gwizdak
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The "busy
> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
> doesn't
>
> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out of
> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally doesn't
> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>
> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just will
> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This is all
> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>
> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned down by
> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
> guide"
>
> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>
> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
> happened
> with the retired guide dog.
>
> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I thought
> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE was
> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted me
> back
> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect from
> TSE.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> hay Lyn
>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they treated you
>> like that
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>> Got that right, Marion!
>>
>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>> school,
>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's brother
>> was
>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with each
>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know. However
>> they
>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to irritate
>> his
>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow cigarette
>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did anything
>> to
>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them didn't
>> get
>> along.
>>
>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us - individually -
>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home without
>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any of
>> the
>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately, the
>> crap
>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>
>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one, the
>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to another
>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to the
>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from that
>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog back
>> and
>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a local
>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The trainer
>> came
>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and that
>> I
>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got denied
>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>> denied
>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across the
>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE ever
>> since!
>>
>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>> towards
>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools EXIST
>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must realize
>> this
>> and be respectful towards us.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> Brittney,
>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each
>>> year
>
>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>> enhancing
>
>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers - donate
>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their livings.
>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we receive
>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>> training
>
>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than wards
>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a dog.
>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership upon
>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them are
>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are beholden
>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and with the
>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our dogs
>>>> for
>
>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed of
>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think the
>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they may
>>>> have
>
>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her home.
>>>> I
>
>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a food
>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there guide
>>>> dogs
>
>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs are
>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I lived
>>>> back
>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>> California.
>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as well -
>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the dogs
>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies? Input
>>>> anyone?
>>>>
>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
>>>> what
>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good health.
>>>> But
>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either want
>>>> their
>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to fail so
>>>> they
>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like this -
>>>> they
>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the only
>>>> info
>
>>>> on
>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their reports
>>>> to
>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>> regional
>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed to
>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>
>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living being and
>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the school
>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or the
>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could have
>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or
>>>>>> two
>
>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome to
>>>>>> do
>
>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to
>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses
>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>> guides
>
>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the student
>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base my
>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>> finicky
>
>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not eat.
>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told that
>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers used
>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up to
>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be on
>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed special
>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog had
>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would tell me.
>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral
>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained why he
>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He also
>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not
>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences with
>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats a
>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the
>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In
>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and
>>>>>>> other
>
>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let me
>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they probably
>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go nuts
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is going to
>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>> receive
>
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things when
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a
>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over
>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur to
>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to
>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied
>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any undesirable
>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps to
>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can bet,
>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties on
>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know
>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you.
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is
>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But then
>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if its
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any problems.
>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that information.
>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her previous
>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It was
>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify them
>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to handle
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and realized
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also true
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything. /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes awhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think? am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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