[nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
Lisa Irving
lirving1234 at cox.net
Tue Apr 26 02:57:13 UTC 2011
Lyn,
Don't even get me on my "soap box" about GDB. I keep reminding my self how
they're going a lot of good for a lot of folks. They just rattle my cage.
Think I'll stick to Guiding Eyes.
Lisa and Bernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
> Glad to be of help.
>
> Brittney: What the hell is your grandmother's problem???? Good grief!
> It's interesting how criminals get believed before us blind folks are.
>
> Tami: Yeah, watch out for those killer socks! LOL! got a real kick out of
> that one! So, are the guide dog schools gonna ban socks because they
> think a guide dog will eat them?
>
> So, GDB thinks you're too sighted and nuts for one of their precious dogs?
> Trying not to be sarcastic - I know that people are happy with their dogs
> from GDB and I'm not trying to flame them.
>
> However, I can't make sense out of how they decide who to accept or who to
> reject. I know people with better sight than I have who has one of their
> dogs. Whatever...
>
> Here's a good one: One day a friend of mine was at a professional
> conference and came across one of GDB's reps. He said to her - while
> seeing her dog from TSE - "So, how come you didn't apply with us (GDB)?"
> My friend told him that she did in fact apply to GDB and got turned down.
> the rep asked her the reason she got in the rejection letter. She said
> that GDB felt she was TOO BUSY a person to have a dog! HUH? The lady is
> a health care professional and managed a department in her office at the
> hospital she worked at. This lady is one of the top professionals in her
> field in the country - extensively traveling to meetings and conferences
> in this country and abroad. She is responsible and has need of a guide
> dog. So, the lady applied to TSE, got accepted and is now on her second
> dog from them. the GDB rep was left there scratching his head over that
> one. Which is odd since he is part of the committee which determines who
> gets in or not. LOL!
>
> I'm so glad I go where I go for dogs and I'm happy.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both of
>> you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words how much.
>> I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes there but man
>> they LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about six months ago. My
>> grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits and kicks my guide dog
>> and they believed her. They took my dog and then gave her back after
>> they couldn't find any proof that she had been abused. It was a totally
>> uncool experience. Yes the fabracated stories have to stop. I thought
>> that I was the only one who has had some person make up a story about
>> them and have the school take someone elses side but yours.I am just
>> thankful I got my dog back. I am glad that I now know know that the
>> schools talk to each other.I hope this issue does not effect me if I ever
>> apply for another guide.
>>
>> Thanks a bunch
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>> Lyn,
>>
>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
>> campus,
>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
>> Commission
>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And the GDB
>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly believed
>> them
>> hook line and sinker!
>>
>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load of
>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
>> full.
>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when I
>> showed
>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
>> carrying
>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it down
>> that
>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous thing
>> when
>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide dog
>> of
>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
>> apparently
>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So I've
>> heard
>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how come
>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs if
>> they
>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program or
>> their
>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
>> somehow
>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>
>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon Commission
>> for
>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did some
>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to navigate
>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks without
>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
>> computer,
>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these things.
>> She
>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail -- that I
>> was
>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had really
>> great
>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it up
>> if
>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to save
>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>
>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to the
>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had some
>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to the
>> dog.
>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting through
>> the
>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not one but
>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
>> everything
>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a surprisingly
>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it. Also, it
>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
>> crossed
>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog program
>> when
>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been quite
>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
>> chatted
>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general perception
>> of
>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect a
>> good
>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
>> didn't
>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report, which
>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about it.
>> She
>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give an
>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>
>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB, though, to
>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
>> statement
>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the issue
>> in
>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed that I
>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had better
>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of how
>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
>> affect
>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>
>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat out
>> lies
>> has got to go!
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
>> "busy
>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories here
>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
>> doesn't
>>
>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved out of
>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
>> doesn't
>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>
>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just will
>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This is
>> all
>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>
>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned down by
>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as a
>> guide"
>>
>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>
>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed the
>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
>> happened
>> with the retired guide dog.
>>
>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I thought
>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE was
>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted me
>> back
>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect from
>> TSE.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> hay Lyn
>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they treated
>>> you
>>> like that
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>
>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>> school,
>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's brother
>>> was
>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with each
>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know. However
>>> they
>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to irritate
>>> his
>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow cigarette
>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did anything
>>> to
>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them didn't
>>> get
>>> along.
>>>
>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us - individually -
>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
>>> without
>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking any of
>>> the
>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately, the
>>> crap
>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>
>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one, the
>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to another
>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to the
>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from that
>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog back
>>> and
>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a local
>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The trainer
>>> came
>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and that
>>> I
>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
>>> denied
>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>>> denied
>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture across the
>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE ever
>>> since!
>>>
>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>> towards
>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
>>> EXIST
>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must realize
>>> this
>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> Brittney,
>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each
>>>> year
>>
>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>>> enhancing
>>
>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers - donate
>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their livings.
>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we receive
>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>> training
>>
>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>> wards
>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a dog.
>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership upon
>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them are
>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
>>>> beholden
>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and with
>>>> the
>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our dogs
>>>>> for
>>
>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed of
>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think the
>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they may
>>>>> have
>>
>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her home.
>>>>> I
>>
>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a food
>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there guide
>>>>> dogs
>>
>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs are
>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I lived
>>>>> back
>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>> California.
>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as well -
>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the dogs
>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies? Input
>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
>>>>> what
>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good health.
>>>>> But
>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either want
>>>>> their
>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to fail so
>>>>> they
>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
>>>>> this -
>>>>> they
>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the only
>>>>> info
>>
>>>>> on
>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their reports
>>>>> to
>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>> regional
>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed to
>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>
>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living being
>>>>> and
>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the school
>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or
>>>>>>> two
>>
>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome to
>>>>>>> do
>>
>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this
>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to
>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses
>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>>> guides
>>
>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the student
>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base my
>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>>> finicky
>>
>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not eat.
>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told that
>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up to
>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be on
>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed special
>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog had
>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would tell
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral
>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained why
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not
>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences with
>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats a
>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the
>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In
>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and
>>>>>>>> other
>>
>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let me
>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they probably
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go nuts
>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is going
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>>> receive
>>
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things
>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a
>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over
>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur to
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to
>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied
>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can bet,
>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know
>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But then
>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if
>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything. /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes awhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think? am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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