[nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
Lisa Irving
lirving1234 at cox.net
Tue Apr 26 03:00:27 UTC 2011
Think that smart poodle would like to do guide work on the beach?????
Lisa and Bernie
P. S. It's going to be in the 80s later this week. No snow in these parts!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
> Hey Tami, you'll have to visit us in San Diego so Mitzi can meet Landon
> and Bernie!
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> Tami,
>>
>> Bernie is part lab and Goldie. He may be stubborn, but I'm the "parent".
>>
>> Lisa and Bernie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> Lisa,
>>>
>>> Who are you and how did you manage to get a black poodle down to San
>>> Diego
>>> disguised as a golden retriever named Bernie? /lol/ Same deal with
>>> her.
>>> Love the strong-willed stubborness when she's guiding me. Have learned
>>> to
>>> accept the accommodations I end up making with her to get around it
>>> everywhere else. Who's the boss around here? Mitzi's the boss! Who
>>> else
>>> do you think it would be? Teehee.
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Lisa Irving
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:35 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Hi Traci and Rebecca,
>>>
>>> This is the "Yin and the Yang" for my darling, Bernie. I love that he is
>>> overall pretty laid back. The other side; not the reverse side, is that
>>> Bernie is stubborn. If I were to go back into Mommy mode, I'd be asking
>>> myself, how can I make this stubborn streak; strong willed, a plus for
>>> both
>>> of us? That's how I, if you will, parent Bernie. I want him to be strong
>>> willed when we're walking. I trust him; most of the time. In the
>>> morning,
>>> Bernie generally wants to get up when he feels like getting up. I know
>>> this
>>> and I accept it. I make this work by talking to him, scratching him all
>>> over
>>>
>>> and gently tugging on a paw. No problem, he get's up. We go through a
>>> similar dance in the evening when I take him out for his last "park
>>> time".
>>>
>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 6:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Rebecca.
>>>> Very well put.
>>>> I'm doing just that with Ben. I have a whole list of things I like,
>>>> and
>>>> things that could be better. Trouble is, some of the dislikes are the
>>>> flip side of what I like. For example, I wish he'd take my corrections
>>>> more seriously, but I love that he will stand up to me when I'm wrong.
>>>> Yin and yang. The yin/yang symbol has a light and a dark side, but
>>>> each
>>>> side has a bit of the other in it. So it is.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>> Britney,
>>>>> I'd suggest you treat this as a lessons learned event.
>>>>> Write down what you like about your dog and what you don't like. Then
>>>>> hang
>>>>> onto it and think about it a bit later.
>>>>> Your experiences and impressions are valid and you should not discount
>>>>> them. You got a dog to do a job for you. The school needs to know what
>>>>> worked and what didn't. Every business does.
>>>>> If we were talking about a heating system and yours worked 75 percent
>>>>> of
>>>>> the time and the other 25 percent it heated your house way too hot,
>>>>> you'd
>>>>> let somebody know. You may choose to live with it because hey, it
>>>>> saves
>>>>> you a lot of money, and you aren't home when it heats too hot, but
>>>>> you'd
>>>>> certainly say "Whenyou install another system, let's fix this
>>>>> problem".
>>>>> Look at your dog and your school in the same way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:44 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> hi Mariane and every body else,
>>>>> Its all so complicated. As a consumer you want the best dog
>>>>> possible.and
>>>>> yes I think we should get the best dog possible.
>>>>> but where do we draw the line between consumer who is asking to much
>>>>> and
>>>>> we
>>>>> are the consumer we have a right to know. There so many things I would
>>>>> have
>>>>> loved to know about my guide dog that I had to find out about later. I
>>>>> am
>>>>> starting to think that I am expecting to much from my school. But at
>>>>> the
>>>>> same time I want to give them the benefit of the dout, sometimes they
>>>>> miss
>>>>> things, things do happen, dogs get sick etc. Sometimes I think I am
>>>>> complaining and other times I think "hay this is what you signed up
>>>>> for
>>>>> deal
>>>>> with it."
>>>>> Take care!
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----
>>>>> From: Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>> "beggar".
>>>>> Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars each year with
>>>>> the
>>>>> assertion that they are doing something beneficial and enhancing for
>>>>> the
>>>>> blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers - donate these
>>>>> millions
>>>>> with the same intent. If it were not for us, those employed by the
>>>>> training
>>>>> programs would not be earning their livings.
>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
>>>>> receive
>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>>> training
>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>>> wards
>>>>> who
>>>>> are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a dog.
>>>>> What
>>>>> other reason would they have for not transferring ownership upon
>>>>> completion
>>>>> of the program? I have heard many justifications and rationalizations
>>>>> for
>>>>> this paternalistic practice but none of them are convincing. It is
>>>>> time
>>>>> for
>>>>> us to discard the notion that we are beholden to the training programs
>>>>> and
>>>>> demand to be treated equitably and with the dignity many of these
>>>>> programs
>>>>> mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Brittney N. Mejico" <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our dogs
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>> Beggers
>>>>>> can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be informed of any
>>>>>> alergy
>>>>>> or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think the schools try
>>>>>> there best we can't blame them for things that they may have missed.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her home. I
>>>>>> contacted
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> school I got her from, and they helped me find a food that didn't
>>>>>> cause
>>>>>> her problems. A lot of people I know there guide dogs have alergies,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs are
>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
>>>>>> lived
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>> California.
>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
>>>>>> well -
>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies? Input
>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools do
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good health.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either want
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to fail
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
>>>>>> this -
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the only
>>>>>> info
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
>>>>>> reports
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>> regional
>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed to
>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living being
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome to
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this
>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to
>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> information:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
>>>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base my
>>>>>>>>> belief
>>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>>>> finicky
>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
>>>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told that
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers used
>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon
>>>>>>>>> cheese
>>>>>>>>> on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up to
>>>>>>>>> slipping
>>>>>>>>> her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be on the
>>>>>>>>> alert.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>> something about all of his allergies and how he needed special
>>>>>>>>> food.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog had various
>>>>>>>>> food
>>>>>>>>> allergies the school would know and they would tell me. Louie is
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral issues. No, he
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>> very severe food allergies which explained why he learned to get
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He also feasted on
>>>>>>>>> animal
>>>>>>>>> feces too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not
>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences with
>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats a
>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the
>>>>>>>>> dog's
>>>>>>>>> food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In
>>>>>>>>> Bernie's
>>>>>>>>> food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and other
>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let me
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> if,
>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they probably
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go nuts
>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is going
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things
>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a
>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>> empties
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over
>>>>>>>>>>>> first.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to
>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied
>>>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
>>>>>>>>>>>> bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes awhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think? am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pshald%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> t
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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