[nagdu] Barking

Marion Gwizdala blind411 at verizon.net
Tue Feb 1 02:47:14 UTC 2011


Pete,
    Oh, don't get me wrong, Sarge can certainly fill the neighborhood with 
his barks....and they sound as big as he is! He just doesn't bark out of 
anxiety when left alone but I am sure he barks when people get his dander 
up! This is another myth of the training programs....that guide dogs 
shouldn't bark! I want people to know there is a huge dog in the house and I 
intentionally do obedience in the morning and afternoon when the hoodlums 
are walking home from school!

Fraternally yours,
Marion



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:35 PM
Subject: [nagdu] Count Johnny In


> Hello Marion and everyone,
>
>    Speaking of quiet dogs Johnny only barks on very rare  occasions.
> Believe it or not since we moved last August we have yet to hear him bark 
> in
> our new place. A joke around here is that when we moved we left a few 
> things
> behind including Johnny's barker. I told Mary that if we visit our old
> apartment we'll need to look for it so he'll bark for us in the
> future.---But seriously he's just a very quiet boy and his barker is 
> present
> and accounted for. People here hardly notice him and some don't even know
> when he's around he's that quiet.
>
> Peter Donahue
> -- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
> Dear All,
>    I believe there is a little mythology that some training programs 
> assert
> as fact in an effort to manipulate consumers. One such piece of mythology 
> is
> the belief that a guide dog cam "lose its training". In 1990, I was
> seriously injured by a fall from a bus. I spent three weeks in the 
> hospital
> followed by four months in a wheelchair. When I was finally able to walk, 
> I
> picked up my dog's harness and we never missed a beat!
>    Currently, I use my guide dog about 75% of the time. I believe my dog
> works just as well as any other guide dog that works 100% of the time. In
> fact, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I believe my dog is better behaved
> when left alone than some other guide dogs since he is more accustom to 
> it.
> Our neighbors tell us our dogs (my wife is a guide dog user, too) do not
> bark or whine while we are away. The "use it or lose it" myth is neither
> psychologically nor practically founded in fact!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>> How long have you been a dog user??
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:06 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> In extreme cases, weather, major illness, places that a dog would be a
>> problem or get too stressed, etc, that is all fine, but the majority of
>> the
>> time, the dog needs to be used or it will lose its training.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Peggy
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:59 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Unless you have raised a family and used a dog ... you cannot judge 
>> others
>> for how they handle situations.  My dog isn't getting as much work right
>> now
>>
>> as she should because I have an infant at home and it's wintertime in
>> Nebraska.  I have a backpack to put him in when the weather is nice and 
>> we
>> can go outside but when it's single digets I'm not going to attempt to
>> take
>> my son out to get the dog some exercise.  As for leaving my baby along 
>> for
>> 5
>>
>> or 10 minutes while I take a walk ... I don't think so.  Do you have any
>> idea what could happen in 5-10 minutes??  What if there's a fire, what if
>> he
>>
>> happens to climb out of his crib??  To suggest leaving a child (infant)
>> alone for 5-10 minutes while you walk the dog is crazy.  Do I take her
>> out,
>> sure, when we have rides to the store, to different things that come up.
>> Is
>>
>> she getting a 2-3 mile walk in everyday like she should be??  No.  If you
>> feel that your not working your dog enough and retire her that's a
>> personal
>> choice.  If I choose to keep mine, although I may not be working her as
>> much
>>
>> as I like to, that's my choice.  But unless you have raised changing
>> children and working dogs ...
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:16 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Logestically speaking, what  would you have a person do in the situation 
>> I
>> described to you? Have you ever cared for another human being? Do you 
>> know
>> what it takes on both a practical and emotional level? I retired my dog,
>> but
>>
>> assumming that there is a middle ground, how would you suggest I meet the
>> dog's needs and the human family member's needs while making sure that I
>> stay physically and emotionally healthy?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:09 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> I will tell you right now that the dog's needs are just as important as
>> human needs.I don't care if you have a sick family member or not.  If you
>> get a dog, you need to take care of it.
>> Jordan-----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:02 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> First of all, a school with such an attitude can take their dog back. I
>> don't need or want a dog that badly.
>> Secondly, most people don't intend to only go out once a week with their
>> dog. I know I didn't. I got to the point with my daughter though that 
>> this
>> is what happened. You can't leave an infant home alone, and they sleep 
>> and
>> eat at times that the rest of the world does not. I found that my
>> daughter's
>> bedtime was also my time to rest, and when I wasn't doing that, it was my
>> time to do laundry, hang with my husband, stay in touch with friends, 
>> play
>> on the computer, basically tasks I could do in my house. Getting a baby
>> ready to go out requires you pack up half the house. It isn't difficult,
>> but
>> it is time consuming.
>> I found that it was easier and easier to just not take my dog because
>> getting the dog ready required yet even more planning, not much, but
>> enough
>> that it did add up.
>> Also, add a kid that is sick to the mix and you have even more fun. And 
>> in
>> my case, these were garden variety illnesses, a stomach bug that lasted
>> for
>> two or three days, an ear infection, and most recently a nasty case of
>> RSV.
>> I left my house just once to take my daughter to the doctor. I was home
>> taking care of her during the day, and when my husband got home, you can
>> bet
>> I wasn't wanting to go out anyplace. I was exausted from making sure my
>> daughter breathed properly, from giving her her breathing treatments,
>> monitoring her fever, making sure she drank and went potty, and that sort
>> of
>> thing.
>> Please be a little kinder in your judgements. Most people are not out
>> trying
>> to screw the system. And most people have to think of other things beyond
>> "what's best for the dog". The dog lives in a family and other family
>> members have needs that will at times trump the dog's needs.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:28 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> The only reason for not getting out with your dog is if you are injured 
>> or
>> if the weather is hazardous to the dog.  Well, in the latter, you
>> shouldn't
>> even be out in it if the weather is that bad.  If you get a dog and only
>> use
>> it once a week, that is a waste of time for the school and you and
>> eventually the school will find out.  Just remember that there are 
>> cameras
>> everywhere these days and it is highly possible that any thing ccan be
>> relayed to the school..
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:20 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> I think to say that someone should not have a dog if he/she gets out with
>> it
>> once a week, or for whatever reason is extremely subjective and
>> judgmental.
>> I think, though, if I got a dog and the school found that I was using 
>> that
>> dog as a pet and was rarely getting out with it or a ariety of other 
>> kinds
>> of things, it would be well within their right to not give me the
>> opportunity to have another from their school.
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog.
>>> .
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
>> your
>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can
>>> it
>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is there
>> in
>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
>> that
>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor 
>>> stewardship
>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from me.
>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who 
>>> is
>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a valid
>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>>> word
>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>>> equally
>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>>> with
>>> other schools.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>> used
>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.  You can
>> go
>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>> handle,
>>>> etc the dog.
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Jordan,
>>>>
>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Here is how ownership should be.  The school should own the dog for no
>>>> more
>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is 
>>>>> properly
>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>>> 'Blind
>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an interesting idea.  One thing that I don't believe you
>>>>> touched
>>>> on,
>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>> ongoing
>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
>>>> long
>>>>> time.  This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an interesting idea.  I will be eager to hear what others 
>>>>> think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>   The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>>>>> with
>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>> gradutes
>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>>>>> way
>>>> to
>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>> Handler's
>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>>>>> among
>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog 
>>>>> and
>>> an
>>>>> appeals  procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>>> he/she
>>>>>
>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>>>>> there
>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>> irresponsible
>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>>> children.
>>>>>
>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
>> for
>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need
>>>>> to
>>>> put
>>>>>
>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>>>>> was
>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
>>>> there
>>>>>
>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>> programs
>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>>>
>>>>>       Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>> between
>>>>>
>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes 
>>>>> to
>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>> between
>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
>>>> from
>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>> custodial
>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>>>>> correspondence
>>>> by
>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>> practices
>>>>>
>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>> their
>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and 
>>>>> their
>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>>> rest
>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>>>>> program
>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>> more
>>>>> harm than good.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog 
>>>>> programs
>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>>>>> told
>>>> to
>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly 
>>>>> removed
>>>> the
>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>> school
>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>> practices
>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have
>>>>> a
>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>>>
>>>>>   One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>>>>> contact
>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same 
>>>>> should
>>> be
>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>> wouldn't
>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>>>>> first
>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>> his/her
>>>>>
>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>>>>> its
>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>>> very
>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if
>>> I'm
>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>>>>> less
>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>> puppy
>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>> graduates
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>>>>> with
>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>   These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
>>>> worth
>>>>>
>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
>> and
>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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