[nagdu] Going out during training

Wed Feb 2 19:19:08 UTC 2011

Hello Gary and everyone,

    And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog training 
programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an 
instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers are 
expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own, with 
another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the same 
when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and custodial 
policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you continue to 
lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning 
unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Hi:

Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of time in 
the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they were 
accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went on. 
No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until after 
they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for liability 
and safety reasons as others have stated.

Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do what was 
required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was a 
jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do this 
since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten days 
I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart for 
some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take away 
my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we 
developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability to be 
responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>

> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>
> > Hello again everyone,
> >
> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
> too high. Lower them because
> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
> environments.
> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
> alone with new
> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
> We need to
> > guide them every step of the way."
> >
> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
> Saturday of what is possible
> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
> is shared by
> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
> Daytona
> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
> could have gone
> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
> navigated the
> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
> the blind. If
> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
> dog users he
> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
> accomplished when the
> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
> tremendous loss for
> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
> until last
> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
> thousands of
> > people.
> >
> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
> lights for Mark's achievement
> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
> training. If
> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
> in guide dog
> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
> work their
> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
> be if a team
> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
> during their
> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
> >
> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
> from people that on occasions
> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
> users. How can we
> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
> unwilling to allow the
> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
> dished out by
> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
> suggests a
> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
> be they with
> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
> last
> > Saturday.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Tracy:
> >
> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
> Bogart alone
> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
> rules first by
> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
> was right
> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
> doing. I live in an
> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
> him that he
> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
> trusted me
> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
> trying to do.
> >
> >
> >
> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
> or two but he
> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
> >
> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
> interested in
> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
> actually Bogart's
> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
> bit with
> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
> >
> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
> that if the
> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
> had to work at
> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >
> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
> >> unfamiliar area,
> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
> >> weeks.  It
> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
> >> and, until
> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
> >> should happen
> >> in the following:
> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
> >> class.  People
> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
> >> one woman
> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
> >> where it
> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
> >> go and
> >> deal with the problem.
> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
> in their
> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
> >> and, if it
> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
> >> to learn how
> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
> they go!
> >>
> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
> >> country for that.  GDB
> >> too, for that matter.
> >> Tracy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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